Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to disability empowerment. Now I'm your host, Keith Mavidi Gencini. Today I'm talking to Nicole D'Angelo, who is the assistant music director, script consulting and drama dance award winning accessibility team of the musical how to dance in Ohio. Nicole, welcome to the show.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah, so it's been forever since we've had seen each other.
By forever, I mean a few weeks. Yeah. Yeah. We actually ran into each other happy stance at the Broadway reunion concert of how to dance in Ohio. But we've been Facebook friends for several years, so it's really nice to be able to actually put a face in voids to name and show online.
Tell me about how you birds became involved with how to dance in Ohio and how you became so involved on multiple different levels.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I have. I took. I took the kind of the long and winding path to involvement. They had an open call for auditions back in. I think it was August 2021, maybe. I think it was 2021. They had open call auditions. And I submitted and I got a callback, and I was so excited, and I made my callback video and I went to submit it, and then I saw that I had misread the email, and the callback was due at 11:00 a.m. not 01:00 p.m. as I thought. And it was like 1130 at that point.
So I sent a very apologetic email to the. To the casting director, but nothing came after, after that. So I basically auditioned and missed my callback.
I kind of. I had the feeling that this was going to be a really cool project. So I was, like, kicking myself, but, you know, I was like, oh, I blew my shot at this really, really cool thing.
And it wasn't until, I think, April 2022. So, like, months later, I got a call from our music supervisor at the time, and he called me to offer me a music assistant position when they were going to Syracuse in September 2022. So they were doing a workshop in New York City in June, and he offered me the music assistant job for that. And what he said was, we wanted to bring in more autistic people on the creative side of things. And your name came up and we remembered your audition.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Wait, they actually said they wanted to bring more autistic people into the creative process? Imagine that. Hard. Wade's finally catching up. I'm trying to say that without any sad.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: But I'm failing. Added epic. Like, yeah.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: So. So they were actively seeking autistic people on both sides of the table.
Our seven autistic characters were played by seven autistic actors.
That's really what drew me to the project, was seeing how committed they were to authentic casting into the inclusion of autistic voices.
So I joined them in June 2022. And what a music assistant does is I was kind of in charge of the score, like the files for the score. And what my job was was to be in rehearsal and keep track if the. If the writer changed anything that might affect the score, or if the composer changed anything that might affect the script, or if the music director changed anything that might affect the music. It was my job to keep track of those things. So I was kind of the keeper of the score, which is a super important job, but, you know, not the most involved position creatively, but where my roles kind of expanded. It started right off the bat in that June workshop, because what I realized is that although we did have other people working on the team who were autistic, our associate producer is autistic. We had an autistic creative consultant, but neither of them were, like, in the rehearsal room every single day.
So I was the only one behind the table who was autistic, who was there at every single rehearsal. And what that enabled me to do. Yeah, what I was able to do, because I do have, like, a really extensive history with advocacy, is I was able to kind of observe and notice, if ever, because that was still in the development process. If the director would say something like, I want to explore this concept within autism, I could say, hey, can you talk to me about that? And then it's not. You're not depending on the actors to share their lived experience, because that's not their job. And if they want to contribute their lived experience, that's great, but that's not what they're hired to do. So I would love if you could come to me.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: And. And I'd be happy to talk to you about that.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Although let's back up a second, because the.
While keeping track of the score isn't the most demanding job, I think you said are the most important job, just to push back on that a little.
The score is the heartbeat of the musical. Absolutely musical. If there's not a score or if there's a scroll in Didgerray, then the musical falls apart absolutely flat on its butt.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: No, it definitely was. It's an important position. It's a very important position. That's just to say that I wasn't putting my own changes into the script. I mean, I was keeping track of creativity, creative decisions that other people were making. It wasn't me making the choices, but it started to become that with me kind of advocating within the room. I also was able to advocate as a non binary person in the room because it was during that workshop that we decided that Mel would be a non binary character.
So I remember being parts of conversations in that workshop where the director was concerned about making that decision because she said, are we going to be able to find talent to replace? Like, are we going to be able to find other actors? And I said to her, Sammy, I just did a show with an all trans, non binary cast and crew, and there were more autistic people there than there are here. You're going to be fine.
Yeah. I think, you know, within the community, I think it's really well known that there is such a deep connection between disability, particularly autism and queerness and transness. So I was excited to be able to teach the room about that. But to move along a very long and winding story, I eventually was offered a script consultant position because. Which is what I had been doing anyway. I'd walk up behind the writer, and I'd be like, hey, that's not how that would happen. Or, you know, maybe. Maybe let's not talk about that, because it's kind of contentious in the community, you know? So I'd be giving her. I'd be. I'd be talking to her during that whole process. We decided to formalize it, I think, before our February 2023 workshop, our pre Broadway workshop. So that's when I added that.
And then we got to Broadway. And right before we got to Broadway, I was offered a promotion from music assistant to assistant music director, which meant I was working directly with the actors. I was teaching the music. I was advising on how, you know, how they understood the score, so it was a more hands on position, and that was really cool.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: No, it's very dull to say that you led and breathed this musical. Cause it sounds like, from a creative standpoint and just going up above and getting more responsibilities, more titles, and being in the room in the every single day.
Is that fair to assume that you.
You lived and breathed this musical professionally, if not personally, by the very.
By the very notion of how involved you were?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Professionally and personally. Because, I mean, I'd leave rehearsal and I'd be sitting on the bus, and I'd be taking more notes and sending them to the writers.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: I can totally picture you doing that. Almost skilled, accurate in my mind right now.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And the funny thing, I think, too, about them bringing in autistic people behind the table is.
There's benefits in general to having autistic people behind the table. I don't think they quite bargained for. Such as, I think I sent about 20 pages of punctuation notes to the writers.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: As a fellow creative writer, I can appreciate that. Oh, so.
But let's go back to the very beginning.
Could you anticipate getting so involved with the project, or was it. And I hate to even contemplate that, but was it supposed to just be another job that you got paid for that had a lot of cool things and a cool, very important concept, but could you imagine getting so entrenched with it on almost every single level?
[00:12:46] Speaker B: You know, I'm somebody who kind of tends to immerse myself in whatever show I'm working on, and my work does tend to extend beyond the scope of music direction. And so I'm really thankful when I have collaborators who are open to that and who aren't just like, get back behind the piano, what are you doing?
So I was very fortunate that my collaborators on how to dance in Ohio were so receptive.
Rebecca Grimoloesic, who wrote the book, is, like, the least precious writer I think I've ever met. And if I said this entire chunk of dialogue is not working for me, she'd immediately change it. Like, she's not precious at all. And she places such high value on the contributions of the autistic voices that she's hearing.
It was really remarkable, and I don't think I ever could have anticipated that they would be that receptive, her and Jacob Yandere, the composer, they were so receptive to any feedback that I had to give. So I'm really thankful that on this project, of all the projects, like, you know, any project I'm working on, if I could choose any of them to kind of immerse myself into this is the one. So I'm really thankful that they were so open to my contributions.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I actually ended lad's seeds in interviewing Jacob.
Oh, another interview with Jacob and also Rebecca for this upcoming season, because I bonded over the lyrics, and I said, look, Rebecca, we can totally do a outs long episode where we will go by the lyrics line by line, and I will treat them like they are Hamlet, because in a sense, they very much are in terms of the cultural significance of everything that this musical represents. Why do you think now judge a few shy years ago, that Broadway really got the cohonids to really be like, this is a story that needs to be told, and we need to cast it as authentically as we possibly can, as two avid musical theater lovers. Why do you think that now was the time that Broadway decided to go?
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think there obviously was a huge cultural shift with the Black Lives Matter movement, and I think that they so effectively pushed forward the importance of people telling their own stories and people having the opportunity to tell their own. Tell their own stories and not have our stories told for us. And so I credit, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement and as well as, you know, all the black theater creators with really kickstarting this.
And, you know, we've seen a few, you know, a handful of other examples of. Of people telling their own stories in this way who haven't really had the opportunity. A notable one is k pop, the musical, which, you know, the score was written by a korean woman.
And though that, similarly to how to dance in Ohio, didn't enjoy a super long commercial run, the importance was established, and it was really clear how important that was to that community. And so I think in kind of that trend, how to dance in Ohio fit in. Well.
We certainly are a group that has never had the opportunity to represent ourselves on Broadway. If there have been autistic actors on Broadway in the past, they've not been open about it and they've not been playing autistic roles. There's never been an autistic role in a Broadway musical that is explicitly so.
You know, there's never been a Broadway musical about disability. We had curious incident, but.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I would in Dreadstein, and that did move the needle, however much it did. But this is very much the first musical which really cast open the doors of let's make that the complete story. And it's like I keep referencing the poem because the ending of that miyazuko, where you give the big climatic kids between the two main characters, that is the akin to drew and Meredith holding hands and dancing at the end, because you're. You're slow burning and slow building that those moments throughout those two shows, and it's just so euphoric to be able to see those narrative arcs pay off in such a big way.
Tell me more about your own journey with your own autism and how it propelled you into disabled advocacy.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I obviously have always been autistic.
I was born autistic, but I didn't know I was autistic until I was about 15 years old.
Basically, when I got to high school, I started having some issues that I had never had before where I would come home from school, and I would be unable to complete any work. I would just be completely paralyzed.
It wasn't fear. It wasn't anxiety. At the time, we called it panic attacks because we didn't have a better name for it. Now it's very easy to look back and be like, oh, that was, that was meltdowns. Those were meltdowns and shutdowns. But they were impacting my academic performance, and my grades started slipping. I was a straight a student my entire life, and all of a sudden, I wasn't able to keep my grades up because I wasn't able to complete any work at home. So we started looking for answers as to what was going on. And I saw a bunch of doctors, and they said generalized anxiety disorder, and they said panic disorder, and they said ADHD and they said OCD, and they said all these things, and with all of them, I was like, I guess I could see that. But they didn't feel.
They didn't feel complete. They didn't feel like they were capturing me completely. I felt like I was trying to, like, push myself into the boxes to make it fit. It didn't feel like it fit. And then I think around. Around that time, I volunteered at the special Olympics at a track and field event, and they paired me with an athlete, and I was to kind of accompany him throughout the day. And what I started to notice was, huh, he also had a hard time with the starting pistol, and, huh.
He reminds me a lot of myself for some reason. And I started looking into it, and I discovered the book look me in the eye by John Elder Robeson, which is about his life growing up autistic. And I read that book, and for the first time in my life, I recognized myself in somebody else's writing. And I said, oh, my God, it's autism.
I knew it. Immediately upon reading that book. I was like, it's autism. That's what it is. It explained my massive sensory issues I'd had my entire life. Because I've always had issues around food. I've always been a really, really, really picky eater. I've always had issues with sound. I've always had issues with clothing, even when I was a tiny, tiny baby. It explained all the academic issues I was having, as well as those sensory issues and even touched on the social issues that I had. As somebody who didn't necessarily understand what a friend was, I would have said that I had lots of friends. But if you had asked me, what does that mean to you? It would have started to crumble.
I would have said, well, the guy who sits behind me in math, he's a good friend of mine.
So I took this information, I was so excited. Took it to my therapist, took it to my psychiatrist, took it to my pediatricians, and every one of them said, no, that's not it.
They said, autism is very rare in girls. Or they said, you're too social to be autistic. Or they said, uh, you're. You're too smart to be autistic. Don't know what that meant.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: No, literally, they did not just say, you do. So.
Yeah, I'm sorry I'm laughing so hard.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: You'Re too, so drawn to be autistic. You're too smart to be autistic. Hell, if we're going that way, nicole, I'm surprised they didn't say, you're too beautiful to be a kid, stick.
It makes no sense.
Those things make absolutely no sense.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: None whatsoever. My favorite washing. No, you're. You're just a gifted kid. And gifted kids tend to be a little weird.
So that was when I was 15. And so.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: Hold on, hold on. I wouldn't have made such a big deal about any of those things if doctors and psychologists didn't save them. Yep. They should know a lot better. It's not like a substitute teacher told, right? No, no.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Doctors.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Judge mine boggling begone.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it revealed to me a huge gap in the understanding of autism.
I also, by the way, I told my parents, this is one of my favorite things ever. I told my parents, I think I'm autistic. And my parents said, you can't be autistic. You're just like us.
And now I make fun of them for that because it is abundantly clear that it runs in the family.
So, anyway, at that time, it made me realize how little understanding there was of autism, particularly how it presents in non male people.
So I began my advocacy right there and then. And I started talking to groups of people, whether they be parents or librarians or teachers or my peers, fellow students. I started talking to them about how autism might look different for non male people, you know, for how autism might present differently in girls. And this is, of course, this is before the research was supporting what I was saying. So really, this was founded in just. I knew so strongly that it was autism that I felt I empowered to say these things, even though doctors weren't agreeing with me.
So by the time the research caught up to what I was saying, and I would find surveys on the Internet that said, you know, I would see graphics that are like, this is what autism looks like in female preschoolers. And I would be like, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check. Yep, got them all. By the time that happened, I talked to my therapist and I said, you know, should I, should I pursue a formal diagnosis? And she goes, why would you spend all that time and all that money for somebody to tell you something you already know? And I said, you know what? You're right.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, did doctors think you were just making it up to get intentional?
[00:27:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: It's like, you know, with all the spare time you had, you. You just clearly needed to do that. My eyes can't wall fall.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So, so I I really, I started, I mean, all of my advocacy work kind of derived from the work I did as a high schooler talking to little groups in libraries. I started doing that. And increasingly it started to be on larger levels, especially when I connected to organizations who did this kind of thing.
I got into. It's very entwined with my artistic stories. So I'm going to divert a little to just mention I have a musical background. I studied music in college. I actually majored in bass clarinet, of all things. I majored in bass clarinet and piano, and I wanted to be a symphonic clarinet player when I left college. And then I realized I hated auditioning for orchestras. So I switched to musical theater full time and started acting.
And that was fueled because I heard about the musical fun home, which is a musical about a lesbian who is socially awkward, who is telling her life story. And when I saw that show, I said, wait a second. You can be socially awkward and you can be queer and you can still be a leading lady on Broadway. And it made me realize that there is space for people like me on Broadway. And so that started my acting journey. So I connected with a few groups and started doing a ton of advocacy through those groups for equitable hiring and authentic casting.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Nice.
So I know you don't like the clarinet, and I know you're a avid piano player. We were texting about that the other day.
What, what attracted you to making the piano your primary musical instrument?
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I actually, I love the clarinet. I love the bass clarinet. I love those instruments. I hated auditioning.
Yeah, I will. I still play them. I still play woodwinds professionally. But I. The deal is I'm only playing them if you're offering me the job. I'm offer only on woodwind instruments. I'm not auditioning for anything. So as it happens now, I just get called all the time for piano. There's a much higher demand for piano. So in many ways, it's kind of a. Yeah, it's kind of a practical decision that I made to focus on piano because that's what's paying the bills. And that's all the phone calls that I get, is to play piano. And, of course, I'll take woodwind jobs if they're offered, but I've just always been musical. And my dad's an amateur pianist. My mom's a musician as well. Amateur. They always wanted to major in music, but they said they'd rather have made money, so they switched to computer science.
But, you know, some music was always around. And there's videos of me as a tiny baby on my dad's lap playing on the piano. There's a video of me at nine months old where I'm sitting next to the piano and my dad's playing different tunes. And I'd be like, that's Mozart. Or I'd be like, that's Scott Joplin, or that's Beethoven. And I would just be fascinated by the different composers and the different sounds. So I've been playing music a long time.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Let's go back to the streets to beat dead horns into the ground one more time, because I still can't get over how ludicrous this is.
Did you ever.
You told. No. You're too tall. Are you too short to be on kidstick?
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Not bad.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: I'm. I'm okay. So you didn't get said that. You didn't get commented on your looks? I'm just trying to think of every outrageous thing at that time.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: I've heard some pretty outrageous things.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Oh, do, Jill.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I used to get a lot of. You don't look autistic.
I don't know what that means.
I used to get. One of the things my mom said was, but you're not like rain man.
And again, that just, you know, she didn't realize that I got it from her at the time. I got a lot of, like, why would you say that about yourself?
[00:33:07] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Because it's a total.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or people would say, oh, I'm so sorry. Or I would get, oh, I never would have known unless you had told me. As if that's a compliment.
So I'm glad that for the most part, we've. We've moved away from that.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really, really glad, too. Okay, we should go back to a much more pleasant topic. I just wanted to rib that one more time in the Vinci. How vintage will we were.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: You're not the only one suddenly not to hear the modes, outrageous things. And, I mean, it's.
It just blows my mind. Kids. I can visually picture all those instances happening. Like, they happened to me when they came, but it's like, yeah, so what. What got you into musical theater, and how did that pattern nudger itself, and how did that pageant connect to your music?
And then when did you decide that that very real pageant should be part of your professional life? Because not everyone gets that opportunity. Like you just mentioned, your parents really wanted to explore music, but they wanted to make money, and so they went into computer science engineer and loved their daughter to pick up the torch they themselves wanted to carry.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: They still would call me, like, once every other week when I was in college and say, do you want to switch to computers yet?
And I'd be like, nope, I'm good.
But musical theater. So I played in the pit for the shows all through high school, and I loved playing in pits. Like, I loved it so much that I didn't realize that you could do that for a living because it was too fun.
And in college, I would see the musical theater majors having fun, and I wouldn't even take them seriously because they were having so much fun. So, like I said, it all kind of came. It culminated with fun home and seeing that show and realizing that there's a place for me in theater and seeing that, no, actually, I think I can do this and I can make money, because if I had continued down the path that I was on, I don't know how much of that path would have been left.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: So fun home was really the be all in all starting.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that was my. That was my come to Jesus moment. I had a. And I have, like, a great story that comes with it where. Where I was. I was going to see a community theater production of ragtime, and when I walked in, they had a poster up for their next show, and it was fun home, and I knew about fun home, and I knew what it was about. And I saw the Tonys, and I remember at the Tonys, seeing Sidney Lucas performing of keys, I was like, there's something about this.
Oh, my God. And I just. I just remember being fascinated by it and being like, I had my own ring of keys moment with ring of keys. And so I saw that they were doing fun home. I turned to the first person I saw, and I said, I would kill somebody to play in that pit. And she said, well, I'm directing it. I said, of course you are.
She directed me over to the music director, and I checked with him, and the pit was booked, and I was devastated. Whatever. But I got back in my car after ragtime, and, you know, it's a really long show. So it was 11:00, and at 11:00 every night, SiriusXM on Broadway puts on a full cast album. And so, literally, I mean, this is. It was nuts. I turned the keys in my car, car turned on, and I heard da da da da da da da da da. The first notes of fun home. And I had this, like, wait a second. I don't want to play in the pit. I want to be in the show. And I never had really had, like, you know, I imagined that, but I had never seriously had that thought. And I immediately took. I enrolled in acting classes, I enrolled in singing lessons, and I made it a goal to audition for that production, and I made it to callbacks in that production. I was really proud of that because everybody else in the room was like, yeah, I study at Manhattan School of Music. Oh, I go to Marymount Manhattan. I was like, I play the piano.
So I was very proud to have made it to callbacks for that production. And it just kick started and a little bit of an acting moment in my life.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Nice. So, yeah, I mean, Farnholm, glad you mentioned it. It's another revolutionary musical. Spring awakening is another one in a. In a very different way. Next to normal is also very, very out there in the ways it illuminates and dreads mental health.
Dear Evan Hansen, of course, the prom and how to dance in Ohio. Very bold thinking, very revolutionary music, in contrast to not all the other villa of Florida that Broadway puts out. Not trying to say that at all, but there's a similar vein on several veins, how these musicals walk and intersect.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: With each other. You mentioned that, uh, that there was a query about making one of the characters in how Jeddahns in Ohio, non binary.
How did that come about in what was your role in it? What's the significance there where you.
You really felt that you played a part in helping?
[00:41:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it began with the conversations in the room where our director, Sammy Cannold, floated the idea. And where the idea came from was because Imani Russell, who played the role of Mel, is nonbinary themselves. And so Sammy had the thought of, why don't we make the character non binary? And I immediately latched onto it, and I said, that would be amazing, because there's a huge trans overlap between trans people and autistic people. I think I know more trans autistic people than I know cis autistic people.
So there's a huge overlap that that's something that doesn't get recognized. There's a lack of non binary representation in general on Broadway. So that would be incredible.
And I just. I remember kind of advising on that. I remember, too, at the time, I had said, I don't remember who I said it to, but I remember saying the character's name was Melissa. And I was like, you know, I think if we're going to non binary route, I think that the character wouldn't go by Melissa. I think they'd go by Melanin. And at the time, I was like, they were like, nah, we're gonna keep it Melissa. And then, lo and behold, the next iteration, the character's named Mel. I went, uh huh, great idea.
The really funny thing about Mel and the journey that the character Mel took is that it unintentionally mirrored the journey that the real person took.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: Because all the characters are based on real humans. And so the person that Mel is based off of kind of lost touch with amigo family counseling. They weren't in the original documentary. It's somebody who Jacob and Rebecca met on a trip to amigo family counseling. And the person had said, you know what? I, they had said, I feel like, um, like this all relates to reincarnation, and autistic people are just, uh, we're in our first incarnation as a human. So that was the person who said that and inspired the song reincarnation.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: That's bloody brilliant. I'm so glad you told, because it's. And Vincent's gonna be one of the modes. Fascinating, uh, questions I asked Rebecca why I'm so taken by that score of those lyrics. It's because they're all character songs. There are some that you have the entire ensemble scene, but others are very focused on certain characters throughout the show, and you don't really hear or see a show that employs that type of writing.
And so reincarnation is a beautiful, beautiful moment, and I'm in a beautiful song.
I'm so glad you brought it up, because that would have been, like, what's the inspiration behind reincarnation? Because when. When I first saw the show and I kept going back to see it, because at the time, the Cats album wasn't out yet, and I was thinking, okay, well, maybe they, for some reason, cat relates it, and so I have to keep going because I'm addicted to musical. We have a lot in charming by the obsessive nature of musical theater. And so, and I. There's a moment earlier on in the show and I wish if they had made a sequel when they make it for thinking widgets can spring eternal, that they would explore melodes in ads, they hint at it and then they let it go. And you're left wondering until reincarnation, because there's history there and reincarnation is a sort of pale the story forward. But like the actor said in one of the behind the scenes videos at the Broadway reunion concert, if there was a sequel, what would you like it to dreads in the actors, said the link.
Or the amount of autistic people in the queer community.
And I really, really resonated with that because that concept needs to really be explored. I mean, I wish I had known what Barnholm was about because the review said nothing about. And so my parents and I went and to it, right.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: That's a shocker.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: Insects in all the right ways. But we couldn't speak afterwards because it's like what had we just seen? So I don't really need to see myself undefected on the stage.
I have cerebral palsy on autistic. Although if you, if you minimize my social butterfly niche, yeah, you could give me a.
But you could give everyone with soldier or anxiety arch dinosis if you judge folk heads on social anxiety.
I saw the prom twice in the lats wake, and I told one of the studs, again, I don't really need to see myself in every show. Unruly hot. It's a fantastic ballad, and it should be celebrated for that. So should the show in what it represents. And then you'd see a show like how to dance in Ohio, and it just magnified the.
The significant impact that musical theater storytelling has, opening up a person to different point of views, different ways of looking at something or someone relating to them, not relating to them. I mean, I follow Jacob's instagram, and there were people who kept going to see Ohio upwards of 20. Yep, 30 times. And I'm like, I consider myself a musical theater obsessive.
I came nowhere close to see that much. But after the third time, I understood more about why people would be as entrenched with the show, not only behind the scenes, but in the audience.
Such a.
Unfortunately, a groundbreaking concept. And I'd say unfortunately because it really shouldn't.
[00:51:56] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: That's how behind the Times Broadway is. But you, you guys did announce at the Broadway reunion that you're getting a UK, not revival premiere premier.
How would.
How woods receiving that news?
[00:52:34] Speaker B: I knew before the concert. So I cheated.
I didn't know. I didn't know they were announcing it at the concert, but I knew. I already knew that that was in the work. So I cheated.
But it did make me think about the differences between uk audiences and us audiences. And it's what you just mentioned. This won't be groundbreaking there.
It will be kind of, in some ways, but the UK is much better at mainstream disability representation than the US is. They have a musical right now called the little big things that's gotten incredible feedback and it's enjoyed commercial success.
I think that relates to how much easier it is to produce original theater in the UK solely for the fact that the government subsidizes the arts. And you don't have to rely on having a movie star in the cast to sell tickets because you can afford to spend time building word of mouth so you don't have to generate buzz immediately in order to afford the show. So I'm really interested to see how those things are going to affect and impact the reception that Ohio has to UK audiences.
[00:53:59] Speaker A: So tell me about the accessible team and what that was like being attached to the musical in that way. What's it different but from your other very significant roles I have to highlight. Again, not everyone gets to be this entrenched a musical of any kind. Mods like, one that really speaks to them and their person would so deeply.
What.
What is a accessible team?
[00:55:04] Speaker B: Well, we are the only accessibility team to ever have been on Broadway, hopefully the first of many.
And it's funny. That kind of came about, really. I think the ultimate need for an accessibility team with a show like how to dance in Ohio especially, is related to the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime. Because my biggest gripe with that show was autistic people can't see it. It's not accessible. The way they staged the show, it was lots of flashing lights and sudden loud noises to try to get the audience to understand what it's like to be autistic. But when you're already experiencing those things at a heightened scale, that show was inaccessible to autistic people. It was very important to me and to everybody on the production that autistic people were welcome at every performance. It didn't take a relaxed performance for autistic people to be welcomed into the space. So really, that was like the basic need of the team on a show like how to dance in Ohio. Of course, I hope to see it on every show in the future, but how we kind of began as a team was again, in Syracuse. I was the only one in Syracuse who was on the team at the time. It was me and Becky Leafman, the director of community engagement, Ava Rigelhaut, the autistic creative consultant, and Jeremy Wine, the associate producer. It was us. And I was the only one who was in Syracuse, in the rehearsal room, in the tech rehearsals at all time. And being in the tech rehearsal. Let me, let me. I got to watch the cues over and over and over. And as I'm watching the cues, I'd be like, hey, that metal steering wheel is throwing a lot of light into the audience. Can we do something about the steering wheel? Or that character's watch is reflecting light? Can we do something about the watch? Or this light cue is fully in my face, can we please not do that? Or this sound effect is too loud? So I could, as the autistic person in the room, start to make comments like that. And it turned into our list. It turned into our sensory advisory guide. And we were able to not only make the show as sensory accessible as we could, we were able to also provide a corresponding list of cues that sensory sensitive people might find distressing. So it gave us a sensory tool that we could provide our audiences.
Also, on the vein of audience accessibility, we were able to provide fidget kits. We were able to provide cool down spaces in the theater. I helped develop a social story so people could understand what it was like to go through the processes of getting to this specific show in this specific theater.
It also was backstage accessibility, because you did have about 20 people who were autistic backstage who have various needs. And so Ava and Becky especially, were instrumental in developing the access needs survey. So every single person on the production filled out an access needs survey, and it had questions like, do you have any sensitivities we need to be aware of? What's your best learning style?
It would ask, you know, in relation to everything. It would say, like, do you have any concerns with costumes? Do you have any concerns with hair? Do you have any concerns with makeup? And so you could go through the list and specifically call out any issues you might have. And I think my favorite thing about that access survey was the reaction it got from the veteran Broadway actors who we had, because all the parents, though neurotypical, they all had 23456 Broadway shows behind them. And they got that access survey, and they were saying things like, I never want to be on another show without that.
They said things like, I've never felt so taken care of in a rehearsal space. And seeing their reaction to that I think was the coolest thing because it just showed that accessibility benefits everybody and that everybody can benefit from, from having just basic questions asked, what do you need to do your best work, and how can we provide that to you? So we had an accessible rehearsal space as well as an accessible product.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: So how was it like getting to know the magnificent seven in the cats, not only professionally, but also personally?
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that was fun. I mean, it's such a small community. The autistic actor community is so tiny. I already knew Ashley, and I already knew Connor, and I knew Madison. Madison didn't know me, but we were up for another role together. So I was up for Meredith when I was auditioning, and we had been up for another role previously that she got. So I was like, Madison, it was really cool. I also knew Imani going in, but I didn't know IMani through the autistic community. We had just worked on another show together, coincidentally. So I already knew four of them going in, but getting to work with them more personally because I only had kind of a surface level relationship with them. Getting to know them more personally was so cool. Not just, you know, because they're awesome people, but also because there would be times that there would be more autistic people in the rehearsal room than there would be neurotypical people.
And so being able to be in a space with so many other autistic people, it just felt so natural.
It was so easy to just be in a room full of people who get it.
So I think that might have been my favorite part of meeting them. And, you know, and I feel so honored that they were able to trust me with some of their concerns as it related to the production. Like, there were some times that somebody would mention to me, hey, this lighting cue is in my eye.
I don't know what to do. And I was able then to go to the directors who talked to the lighting designer, and I could say, hey, can we move this cue so that so and so can do it accessibly and reliably eight times a week without having to worry about a light being in their eye. So I was able to advocate for some of the cast, and I was honored to be able to do that.
[01:01:51] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, did you guys hang out afterwards on days off?
[01:02:04] Speaker B: I know that they. They were all really tightly knit. They had their. Their nickname for themselves.
[01:02:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a shock.
That sarcasm, yet my eyes again cannot roll in my head. Back in the. No, the cats meeting them.
And this goes back to what you guys opened every show about. Because there's a very accurate, correct saying. If you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, said at the beginning of every single show, and it could not be more true.
The assumptions that people.
Unfortunately, this is me not being sarcastic for once, this interview, that people still think artistic people are not social, very savant, very for themselves, aren't funny or inappropriately funny, etc. Etc. And I mean, judge the aunt social part, particularly the night of the Broadway reunion concert. I got to meet all of them very, very easily. They could not have been more nights, more welcoming. I had the longest conversation with Liam, who I. I totally didn't expect to be able to maintain a conversation. I mean, it's super light at night, right? He was.
All of them were very engaged.
It's like when they were talking to me, I felt like the only person in the room. Even though we were surrounded by people both in the. Where we were and outside, as they were all walking, uh, to the Aptia party or whatever, they, uh, will to. And so.
And I go on and on about that because that goes in the fades of one of the shockingly pervasive assumptions that people still make to they determine that artistic people are somehow not so true. If they are, they think they are better than on every level. I mean, we. We've been talking throughout the week. I've never gotten that five of you are anyone I've met at the show. And why do you think that such uncorrect assumptions could set in subscribed to a entire community? Because that's just mind boggling to me. How?
I mean, I got a leech of humanity with all the Cats members. And again, I would say again, probably for the third time, when I talked to them, to each of them, they made me feel like I was the only person that they were focused on. And these are all Broadway at the end of a very long show. And so why do you think that such incorrect assumptions get made about an entire community?
[01:07:51] Speaker B: I think the loudest voices are still the ones that are not really autistic voices, because when, you know, the typical layperson thinks of their experience with autism, I'm sure they're thinking of the good doctor or they're thinking of Sheldon COoper or they're thinking of Rain man, and they're thinking of these stereotyped performances that while there are autistic people who do identify with those characters. And I absolutely respect that the characters lack nuance.
They lack the nuance.
They represent antisocial people. Who aren't interested in having conversations or interested in other people. That's who these characters are. And for some reason, they are still the most prominent faces of autism, despite none of them actually being autistic.
So I think it's just a testament to how important authentic representation is and shows, like, how to dance in Ohio. And it's funny because, like, you know, I would see reviews of how to dance in Ohio, that we're often ableist. And one of the things they would say is, you know, I want to see higher stakes. I wish the stakes were higher. And it made me think, you just don't value what stakes are like for normal, everyday autistic people. You're thinking of the stakes that Sean Murphy has to contend with or that Sheldon Cooper has to contend with. You're not thinking about.
This is high stakes for us. Getting on the bus and somebody being in our seat is high stakes.
So I think opening people's eyes to what autism really is. And, of course, one of the reasons that we put that quote, the, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. One of the reasons for that quote being in the opening is not just to say the quote, you know, which already is so powerful by itself, but it's also to say that these are seven autistic people. This is not every autistic person.
This is only seven autistic people. Because, you know, we didn't represent a lot of the autistic community. We didn't represent any non speakers.
[01:10:13] Speaker A: You weren't trying to do that.
[01:10:16] Speaker B: No, no. But. But, you know, I think people would come and they'd be disappointed because they didn't see their experiences of autism on the stage. And. And that's okay. That's, you know, we only had two and a half hours if down the line, if we had made it to the point where we could recast. I was very heavily on the side of casting a non speaker in one of the roles and doing a deaf west style, have an autistic singer sing the songs while the non speaker acts the songs. I was very, very pro that, and I would still love to see something like that.
But it's just to say there's so many versions of autism. What the primary understanding of this country is of autism is a very narrow view. It's all the same character over and over. It's the same savant, antisocial, you know, like, so, so just. Just being able to have Remy, a non binary, you know, person of color, a black, autistic, non binary queer character on a broadway stage was huge. That was massive.
[01:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, speaking of. About my experience, just a second, because how I find that people assume that people with cerebral palsy are only in a wheelchair or on crutches or some other mobility divides. And I. I purposely don't use the. If you match one, then you've methadore one. Uh, because I don't like co opting, uh, other things, other scenes. Uh, so I just described cerebral palsy as a universe within itself, because, speaking from personal experience, 95% of blood cerebral palsy does not affect me, but that does not lets in the fact that I have cerebral palsy. And so it's a whole universe in and of itself.
And yeah, you could say that the.
The diversity of cerebral palsy should also be on a spectrum itself, but then you get tangled in the weeds. And one thing I wish that they had kept in the show more succinctly. Night out denied his in remedy's song in the second half, which is a very moving tour de vault. Uh, they're all moving to the french song something. Let's not try to spread hoods here. Um, but I wish that Remy said in that song, nothing about us without us more concretely, because I think if ever there was a time for that embrace of that line, that was the moment in the show where it should have been like a huge acknowledgement and hug, a musical hug of.
Yet you'd see this play by. It affects the all of us. And that's not a criticism at all with the cats or creative, uh, team. It would. Just. Because I heard that whites in the six times I, uh. Solid. And so it was very odd. But there's a so many other things that the show got so spot on. And I was telling Rebecca and Jacob, who I saw at the reunion show, and actually I saw Doctor Amigo, uh, there several times.
[01:16:09] Speaker B: He's hard to miss.
[01:16:11] Speaker A: Oh, yes, yes. And fun fact. So that blue crunch blazer I had on, I worried especially for him.
I had told him at the lads showing of the broadway run that if I ever saw him again, I was gonna be in that blazer, which, yay, I just deliver on that vomit. Way to go, me.
But no, after the lads showing, I watched the documentary twice on Max in preparation for my interview with Jacob. And I'm like, I can only think of one thing besides the lack of music in the documentary that the musical added, which is the fall from grades and redemption of second half and a March bigger cards in the documentary. But it's like, that's why I really, really wish of the UK premiere, of course, that someone finds some way to part that musical like they did the prom to a full length of production on Netflix. I mean, they've done it with Evan Hansen. I only mentioned that because I'm. I was very relieved to read the new Jardi goal in Broadway world that, uh, they managed to pro shot one of the, uh, lads remaining shows of the musical.
[01:18:51] Speaker B: Kind of. We got an archival recording. It's not quite a pro shot, but we got an archival recording. But what I can say, what I'm allowed to say is that, you know.
[01:19:03] Speaker A: Hold on, are you breaking news?
[01:19:06] Speaker B: I'm not breaking news. I'm saying a movie adaptation is not out of the cards.
[01:19:11] Speaker A: Well, good. That makes the fan in me very, very, very happy, because it was the second time around that I. I'm like this. That could be very, very portable to that medium. So wrapping up, even though. So until we could both talk to each other for three, 5 miles, we're both very chatty people.
I always like to end the interviews by getting some action steps from the guests.
There are any disabled actors, stagehands, behind the scenes, people who want to make musical theater advocacy, disability advocacy, accessibility advocacy, they professional calling, like, you have what are even disabled musicians, what would be some action steps you would provide then?
[01:20:47] Speaker B: I think I saw, I saw the other day, something about success, especially in this industry, is it's part opportunity and it's part skill, but it's also part dumb luck.
And. And so in order to.
[01:21:09] Speaker A: You mean like odds randomly bumpy?
[01:21:14] Speaker B: Exactly.
It's, it's just, it's just luck. And I mean, I wouldn't have been offered the music assistant position if I hadn't also been working with one of the actors. Like, we co taught a class and he's the one who floated my name. Like, that wouldn't have happened. So the only way to kind of welcome that luck, or the way to like, increase your chances of that luck reaching you is to just always be open to opportunities because you never know where those opportunities are going to lead. Like, I worked. I work at French woods, the theater camp, and that's just like a summer job. Sure, whatever. But I've had so many opportunities arise because of it, because of the connections that I've made there. So much in this industry is just about being open to opportunity and taking it whenever it comes along. And being a good person, also being somebody who people want to work with is so important. And I always say that when I'm hiring musicians for my pits as a music director is between the person who's the best player in the world, but who's kind of a jerk and the person who's not necessarily the best but is really nice. I'm going to hire that second person every time. So, I think, you know, a lot of this industry is just opening yourself up to opportunities so that hopefully something lucky like how to dance in Ohio, comes along and. And just being gracious and being a good person that. That people want to work with.
[01:23:00] Speaker A: So, I'd like to thank.
And I. I hope that both people with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities listening program, I'm not naive to think that both groups will take the same things away from every episode. So, as my guest, what do you hope that religion and viewers with disabilities take away from every topic we've talked about on this show and what. What do you hope that those who have yet to embrace or discover their disabilities take away from everything we've talked about?
[01:24:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I think for disabled people, I think the most important takeaway is that there is space for you.
And if you don't see a space for you, that's because you haven't made it yet.
You know, there's room in theater for everybody, and there is a market for these stories to be told. There are people who want to hear these stories, so don't hold them back because you think nobody's going to want to hear them. I think for, you know, for non disabled listeners, my takeaways are always nothing about us without us and valuing lived experience when telling the stories of those people who have those experiences and looking around and seeing who's missing from the room that you're in. Are there autistic people in the space? Are there people of color in this space? Just always be aware of where you are, but also what's missing from where you are.
[01:25:29] Speaker A: And so where you are in your advocacy journey. Now, if you could go back and say a thing or two to the person you were at the beginning of your advocacy journey, and it doesn't have to be tied to a virtual diagnosis, but if you want to speak to your younger self, what would you tell that person just beginning on their journey to where you are today?
[01:26:20] Speaker B: Well, I think where I began with my autism journey is that I had zero validation that my convictions were true or correct. And I always felt myself almost being an imposter, worrying that, oh, my God, what if I'm not autistic saying these.
[01:26:39] Speaker A: Things, and I can't even imagine what that felt.
[01:26:46] Speaker B: I think. I think I'd say to that person, just hang on. It's all gonna. It's all gonna catch up and time's gonna. Time's gonna be your friend.
[01:26:56] Speaker A: I know we, we've talked about that, a lot of one, but I really hope that you become a composer and your own musical, your own documentary, because you are certainly telling me enough and you're a storyteller. And I feel so blessed to be able to talk to you about everything. Me, Theta and advocacy. Have a wonderful time at camp, my friend. And I do hope that you will come back on another episode and cock my ear off.
I like when that happens.
Have a great time at camp, my friend.
[01:27:59] Speaker B: Well, thank you. And thank you for having me.
[01:28:11] Speaker A: You have been listening to disability empowerment. Now I would like to thank my dads, you originally, and the Disability Empowerment team that made this episode possible.
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