Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to disability empowerment. Now I'm your host, Keith Mavicinceni. Today I'm talking to Rebecca Grill Maloczyk, who is the book writer and lynx for the broad musical how to dance in Ohio. Rebecca, welcome to the program.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me, Keith. Happy to be here.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: I saw the musical six times, which I normally don't do. I normally tap it at two or three.
Uh, thank you.
The music and lyrics were so prominent and so utterly infectious that I, I kept going back and back. I have fantasy in my head and at any of the points you would be concerned, but I'd seen that live on air, but in, in my head, this is how creative I am.
The cats has just finished the movie.
You and Jacob have judged, put the vintage, the vinaging touches on part two and all in the early, early brainstorming of part three.
Yeah, I just want to keep you all gamefully employed and once I really want to see that happen, that's how creative I am to. That's the adventit.
We met at the Broadway reunion concert, which was wonderful and a very interesting concept for a Broadway musical that just closed to come back that way.
I have been blessed enough to talk to Jacob, your wonderful collaborator lads seeds in he was the final episode. I got to talk to some of the cats members as well. I've literally gone over this musical like six or seven times in interviews. I can probably quote your words back to you, and I mean to have you send me a copy of the script so we can literally go line by line through the whole thing because I have a, uh, I refer to you as the female virgin of Shakespeare. With what?
And because in all serious, Ned, you have wrote something that is laid to my mind the musical equivalent of Hamlet.
And that's not an easy feat at all.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Except not everyone dies at the.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: End of taking out the drugs and sex.
Back in the rocking wall, Vince, I just gave a master class of how to smoosh the creative team. So they put you in the next ten shows, guaranteed. This is how you do it, people.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Gets you everywhere.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Thank you.
But I really do mean that everything it is and was an incredible show to experience that many times.
How did you, first of all, how did you meet your collaborator Jacob? And how did you fudge hear about the documentary? And what was the motivation behind the oh yeah. Vid beer hit musical? Cause I'm thinking in the back of my head you see books or movies did transdez but to Broadway you don't see a lot of documentaries. Make that jump. So what was it about this one in particular that really grabbed you?
[00:06:25] Speaker B: You know?
Well, the first. The first question, where did I meet Jacob? My collaborator, Jacob and I met 1314 years ago, 14 years ago at NYU's graduate musical theater writing program. We got our mfas at NYU, and we were both writing music and lyrics before we went into the program. And I went in there in part because I wanted to learn more about book writing. And though I am a musician and I love composition, I was less interested in writing an entire musical score.
And Jacob, similarly, is a fantastic lyricist but wanted to focus on the music part. And so I think one of the reasons we work so well together is we have a lot of respect and understanding for what the other person does. Jacob is actually the one who found the documentary how to dance in Ohio, and it was truly just him looking for something to watch one night, and it was very accidental.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: I can totally imagine that.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: And it was the title.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: We all do it.
There are too many choices. How do we narrow it down?
Yeah, it was the title. I can totally picture that title in particular, grabbing someone.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Well, it's very active, and. And it's got a little poetry, and, of course, you know, we work in musicals. It's got dance.
And Jacob and I both grew up in Ohio, and so he thought, oh, ohio, what's this?
And then when he read the synopsis that it was about a group of autistic young adults in a social skills therapy group preparing for a dance, Jacob's like, oh, I have to watch this. Because his little sister Maria had just gotten her autism diagnosis, and, you know, I'd known Maria since she was 13, and so I had seen a little bit of this journey of testing and, you know, like, ieps and figuring out, like, what's, you know, what's going on. And it was interesting because when Maria got her diagnosis, there was this sense of relief. I don't want to speak for her, but what Jacob and I sort of took away from it was like, oh, here we go. Like, I'm not alone, you know?
[00:09:00] Speaker A: I know what's going on now totally makes sense. There's a lot of clarity. Yeah. I mean, that's totally fair.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And so then Jacob watched it, and he sent me this impassioned email, because the story really sang to him, and I think what he loved was that.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: You still have that email.
Be wonderful.
Well, because, as you well know, Jacob is a very passionate person. Like, that is one of the things that really gravitated mean to him. So before we go on how I meth him is TDF is a wonderful organization.
And when I was in New York at the beginning of the year, I saw that musical several times because you guys hadn't put the soundtrack yet, and there was a feel in the back of my head, maybe they will release it. So I kept going. And the second time I went, I wasn't in the accessibility program yet. So what PDF does is send the tickets over. And that day, the box office randomization rides randomized bedseets and so happened to put me in a row in front of a few friends of Jacob, and he would sing hello, and I couldn't help but over here. And so I let him finish saying goodbye now, words in the front. Well, I think ponder.
And so as he was walking to his seat, and I normally don't do this, I grabbed his arm and, well, tapped it and said, did. Excuse me, did I just tell you? The composer of this musical, it's fantastic. I gave him literally all my bids, mids cards, and said, I would really love to interview some of the Cats members and anyone involved with this show. So it was because of TDF and the box office that randomly put me in the right place at the right time to meet Jacob Keith.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Can I just say, I think the entire trajectory of this musical has been right place at the right time.
From Jacob finding that documentary in that moment, in that year, in that moment of his life.
We had been in conversations with our young producer friends Ben Holtzman and Sammy Lopez about doing a show, and we're getting together every few months and just sharing ideas. And when we told them about this, you know, it just so happened that Ben Holtzman was working for Hal Prince. It just so happened that Hal Prince wanted to. Wanted his next musical to be about autistic people.
You know, like, it was this.
Everything came together in a way that things don't for musicals. I was just saying that a couple of weeks. But, yeah, like, so much luck is required. And I feel like in some cosmic way, just the doors. Not that there wasn't a lot of work and disappointment and heartbreak, but when I look back at the journey, it was much faster and smoother and sweeter than. Than it usually is.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Well, you got.
You struck gold with this musical, the creative team, the accessibility team, and most of all, the cats that you able to get. And you didn't need a big name, although with the Syracuse, you had the original angel from rent. And so, yeah, I've met him on.
We did meet and greet few years ago and so.
But talk about what it was like writing songs for each character and having the other characters be in the those songs. Cause you don't always see that in musicals.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, we had a big challenge in this ensemble show. Ensemble shows are tricky anyway.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: You know, but we had our seven autistic characters who I would say, you know, it was primarily their story, and then seven other characters around them, sort of part of that orbit. And I really try it in every show I write. I just want every part to be fun on stage. I hung up my acting hat a long, long, long time ago. But when I was performing, I loved it when I was a lead, and I also loved it when I was just in the chorus, being a townsperson.
And, gosh, you know, I think that in creating the ensemble, what was trickiest was we say at the top of the show, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. And even within these seven autistic people, we're only showing seven autistic experiences.
And there's a lot of that we didn't show in this version. You know, Nicole D'Angelo, who was my script consultant on the show, and, you know, we just sort of picture Nicole and me sitting next to each other in all of the rehearsals, whispering back and forth. You know, we've talked a lot about the fact that there were no non speaking characters in the show. And we really, really hope that in future productions that there's a way to incorporate nonspeaking autistic actors as well.
You know? So in creating these individual characters, I would say they're one part from the documentary. Like the first draft, I really just tried to use as much dialogue from the documentary as possible.
But then we did our first industry reading in October of 2021, and that's when we cast our seven autistic actors that we had all the way through Broadway. And I'm sure that they say this, too, like, one part documentary, one part who they actually are, and then one part mixing in between me tossing my own things in.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: I'm so glad I didn't watch the documentary before I saw the musical, because it was after the closing on Broadway and right before I interviewed Jacob and I was blown away by there's one big revelation or action in the musical that isn't in the documentary. But other than that, your judgement, the music, it should like, it's not a complete carbon copy, but it's enough to where I would like. Oh, that. That.
Okay, that. Yeah, that and that. And I mean, so a ensemble show is always hard, and I know nothing about writing musicals. That's never been my creative forte.
But you needed to center or anchor around a ads, Melo says in the show, a hilded normal couple.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: And so how did you choose that specific couple while also structuring the musical to where we all knew they were the vocats, but it didn't detract from any of the characters. I mean, every time I'd saw it, I would.
I knew what would happen, uh, once I'd saw him the second time, but I never felt like the main romance overpowered the other, which it's a very delicate balancing act to do. I can imagine.
And so how did you do that and why that couple?
[00:20:17] Speaker B: You know, it's so interesting the way that choices get made over the course of creating a piece of art over the course of six years. And I think about this a lot. You know, a lot of this spring.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: For me has been six years.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, we. The show was written over the course.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Of solid six times, one for every year.
Thank you.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: And I personally, am a very iterative writer. You know, early table reads are the worst for me because I get, like, a sketch of the characters down and then build them, and then I love working with actors because it's so much more fun for me to get to write to their strengths, you know? So once we cast, I mean, our whole cast, we got so lucky. We had so many comedians in the cast. But, you know, once we cast Ashley Wole and Connor tag and Amelia Fay, all of a sudden it was like, oh, okay. I see how each of these actors have a very specific sense of humor. So even as Amelia and I were growing closer, I remember after one workshop, we had this conversation about, like, both of us kind of have a sort of a macabre sense of humor, and we're very sweet, but we love spooky things, and we were talking, and we should make Caroline a little bit more into murderous, just add a little bit. And so, you know, that's where the guillotine line comes from. It was really just, you know, Amelia and I palling around and trying to put our own senses of humor in there. And similarly, you know, it was, it was very fun to write jokes for Ashley Wole, and then even Imani, who has this incredible deadpan and, you know, Mel, their character, she does.
Imani is a comedian in their own right, but a very different kind of comedy from Connor Tague. So, again, what a joy for me to get to write these parts tailored to the actors for three years.
Oh, my gosh. And, of course, I lost my train of thought and loving on these actors so hard.
I think what I was answering was the ensemble question, the romance. So I don't consider. Romance is not my genre. I don't consider myself a very romantic person. Happily in love for many years. But so, you know, we talk about the choices that lead up to that. When Hal was directing the show, he knew how he wanted it to end. With Meredith and drew in, spotlight spinning around, he had this very clear image in his mind, and we stuck with that throughout the.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Okay. So, yeah, I mean, and unfortunately, he passed away several months. But it's really good and sort of a tribute to him that you kept that idea intact. Like, in literally all of the other interviews I've done, uh, I keep making analogies to the plum, which is another great musical, and they both end with a dance.
It's a slow burn through both of those music gods. And so you get the payoff at the inn. And really, I wish Jacob would share his own home. The music of how to dance in Ohio, it's very much laid in my mind, very similar to the prom. It's bombastic without being overwhelming. It's jaggy, romantic. It's everything I saw and heard in the prom in a very different context. So, uh, yeah, that, and I love how the latch lines of the musical how to dance in Ohio, it's lately drew Judge saying 1234. I mean, the only difference from the endings is in one musical, the characters cats and the characters don't.
It would.
It wouldn't really work for those characters. And, I mean, they are just the beginning of.
And so, yeah, I mean, but how did you do the balancing act of.
Because that's very difficult. Gold.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
Again, some of it, I really wanted to make sure that every character had some kind of arc, even the smaller characters, even the parents, you want everyone to feel like they're a part of this community.
And so I mentioned that I'm a very iterative writer, and I do think a lot of it was just sculpting the book. When we would get into workshops, it would suddenly become apparent of, like, oh, we haven't seen Meredith's dad in 45 minutes. Where's Michael? So we would find, okay, well, how can we get a moment with even, you know, in the beginning of act two, meredith sings that song, drift. And I asked our director, I love.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: By the way, because at the end of act one, you have no idea if she likes him the same way or it's indifferent or it creeped out. And then drift comes, and you're like, yes, yes, yes.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: Drift is one of my favorite sides.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: The hob legs romantic, I would have in my head jumping up and down for the characters because I'm drift. It's such a great song in and of itself. Uh, but. And so I should let you answer that, Keith.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: I'm so happy you said that about drift, because it was really funny. The workshop that we did before we went out of town for Syracuse, Drift didn't exist. And. And somebody in the room or me, I think all of us were like, does she like him?
It wasn't totally clear.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: See, I told the real Doctor Amigo, who I just fawn over his personality.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: I loved him.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: It makes me bring my triple A game. I mean, when we met, I was in the blue crutch velvet, uh, jacket, and that was because of him, because the closing of Broadway. I was talking to him and telling him about that very jacket, and I said, if I ever see you again, I will be wearing that jacket. But, I mean, I told the real doctor amigo that the scene in the documentary that I really resonated with and will I share what Doctor Amigo was feeling in that scene? It's where Doctor Amigo takes the real mare dip and the real drew, these very real people into the other room, and Drew would like to take you to the prom now.
Her eyes and, like, and my previous part, now, what is a dead stick? And so I had seen that very excitement and. But it was Doctor Amigos, like, okay then.
And on Sid, you would have think by her reaction that Drew had judge propose. Yes, because she was so flipping excited.
I mean, it was almost like she was acting, but she wasn't. She really was that excited.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: I'm so happy you brought up that moment, Keith, because that, like, the particular timbre in Meredith's voice, the way that she says, sure, it's in my head all the time. And when we talk about, like, funny ways that characters get built. So, because I love the way that she said, sure, there were many moments in the script where Meredith, the character, said, sure, because I grabbed onto that from the documentary. But then I think, gosh, in our February 2023 workshop. So, like, the last thing we did before Broadway, Nicole D'Angelo turns to me at some point. It was about the ending of the show, when Drew says to Meredith, can we dance now? And because of that moment, the documentary, I had Meredith going, sure, because I loved it. But then Nicole points out that our Meredith, that we created is a yes or no person. And it was so great to have, again, one part from the documentary, one part from actual Madison, who originated the role. And so then we changed the end. Can we dance now? Yes. And that got a huge laugh in the show every time because it had the same enthusiasm. But then I went back and I changed every single Meredith answer to yes or no, and it became a defining quality of that character.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Exactly. So talk about Little League. Striking gold and getting the amazing cats, particularly the seven magnificent artistic actors, many of whom are singers and songwriters themselves, and building that community, because at the end of the play, they very much seem like the old family. And in meeting them after the Broadway reunion, they act like it of stage as well. And you don't really get that a lot in cats. And so what would you like finding the seven odd stick actors?
[00:33:30] Speaker B: What you said made me get very emotional because, you know, people talk about theater family, show families, but this was like an extra, extra, like, deep, intimate relationship. You know, like, I do think that one of, like, what people thought on stage, that sense of community existed offstage as well for all of us. And part of that was because we got to work together for so many years, so closely.
Some of its luck. You know, I always say that, like, this business is equal parts talent, tenacity and timing. So I think, you know, the fact that we did, you know, we asked for self tapes in 2021, and we were lucky that a bunch of that, all of those actors just happened to submit that they heard about it, that they were willing to put themselves out there because it seems, gosh, I feel like we've come so far in the industry, even just the last couple of years. But it was a risk for some of those actors who weren't necessarily open about being autistic and to worry about, you know, is there going to be a stigma if I'm open about this?
So I really appreciate that. But again, there was even a little bit of odd luck in the fact that Nicole DeAngelo, who I bring up all the time because they work so closely with them, Nicole missed their callback. Nicole is a really talented actor and wanted to be in the show. And I feel really, really lucky, just selfishly, that Nicole missed their callback because then they ended up coming onto the music team and the script team and the access team, and I, I don't know what I would have done without Nicole on our side of the table. So again, a lot of that is just luck. And I say, I say luck because, you know, the seven actors who originated these parts are incredible. And then the five covers that came on to be understudies for these roles were incredible. And, you know, I remember when the show announced closing, someone posted on Instagram a comment about, oh, I'm so bummed. I really wanted to come see this show. I'm autistic and I'm in the arts. And my first thought was like, I'm really bummed you can't see this show, too, because cast is incredible, and this production is incredible. And yet the good news is, like, you'll get to do the show.
It'll be available for licensing eventually. And then that's what I'm most excited about, is that there are so many talented autistic actors that I hope will get to inhabit these roles.
And again, one of the reasons that we wanted to have seven autistic people on this show, and not one or three or five was to just, again, really, really show the many personalities.
You can have this many autistic people in this one group, and we're still just showing a tiny, tiny sampling of the spectrum.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: The scene that intricates me, that I want to know more about and go into pitching an idea of a sequel, which if I would, Bruce Wayne, I would be writing you a check right now.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Can I jump in for a second, Keith? Because I also think these characters are so fantastic, and, like, I want, like, a tv show serialize it. I want, you know, the movie version. But I also, I think a huge part of launching this project is, like, autistic artists taking this story as their own. So, like, you know, I hope this tv show happens and, and I hope I'm not the writer, you know?
Well, you know, they're. But, but please, just, you know, everyone franchise it.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: So, so the scene and it's little, little scene.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Will Mel and actually renew on the verge for a time? And you put in this line about they use to actually use to come over to mail town and play video games and that I wanted to know more about. And you sort of get a payoff in act two with reincarnation. Wonderful song, by the way. There are no bad songs. Image. Musical. That's another thing I'm stunned by, but that judge building on that example, and we are present in voices in the autistic, uh, community, which was brought up by CaDS members, several cads members in the Broadway reunion show. I'll go one step further, though.
Make actually a late identifying artistic.
You have so many avenues, or whoever writes the next one has so many avenues, and you don't have to do that because these obeyed some real people. And the real actually isn't a jetstick or she doesn't say that. And in the documentary. But that would be, that's one avenue that someone could drive down.
Uh, the sequel whip. But you can jump to it by exploring the relationship with Mel and AJ Le and then Remy, eventually they find romance. And that, uh, suggestion from one of the actors exploring what Drew and Meredith go to, if it's just one shot, dawn or not, hub, let's a real romance. Because, I mean, you go through the entire verse, part one, I'm gonna keep referring to it, seeing those characters. And it's like, and you keep mentioning Nicole D'Angelo.
She's actually the first person I interviewed.
And so part two of this interview is gonna be getting you and her together. And we're not gonna go line by line, but we're gonna dig out about the creation of the script because, and Vincit's not a Chuck because she says it in the interview, but Nicole is authentic. And so that's a relationship, creative relationship. And if Jacob ever stopped traveling to get you two together, to really unpack that creative process, because I'm not judge taken by the story of the musical, but the creative prod says the directory about this musical.
You can call it a creative obscen of mine, but really, really speaks to me because if while we tried to do this even five years ago, they would have not done it with autistic actors because Huawei wasn't ready to grow up at that time, although they did do the plum. So we were making progress.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: Well, look, like, you know, it's a tricky thing because I would often say, leading up to the Broadway production that it would make me so happy if everything we did, you know, a year from now or, you know, even like a month after opening is totally obsolete and irrelevant. Like, I would love to be outpaced.
[00:44:25] Speaker A: By, but would vince video cats? So would this video cat?
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, like, if, like, if accessibility outpaced our musical and all of a sudden people were like, social disability or social, social models of disability. Like, we all know about that now. But the fact is, you know, I think you can even see, and I don't mean this as, like, to sound defensive, but even I think in some of the ways that the show's show was reviewed, you know, people just don't, people don't even know about the difference between the medical model of disability versus the social model of disability. So, you know, it's, it's things like that. I think that our show had to exist to even start the conversation in many ways.
And.
And a lot of the choices that we made, you know, even Nicole and I, we had. And not just Nicole and I, also Ava Rigglehelpt, you know, Sammy Canald, like Becky Leafman, other members of our access and creative team. It was that question of, like, well, how deep can we go in the, you know, like, in the advocacy, being on stage? And. And we kind of knew, you know, where do you find the balance between educating the audience while entertaining them?
Not feeling like you're on a soapbox, but also really validating the experience of disabled people. And, you know, that's why we put that inspiration porn subplot in there and was to really give the audience.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: By the way, that not made up for cutesy, uh, real time.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: It was so interesting, Keith, because we. We lived it in Syracuse, you know, that subplot was in there. And again, it was there to help the audience, too. Like, hey, don't. Don't just watch this musical and be like, I was so inspired, you know? You know, like, like, look for the deeper themes and look for the deeper challenges and struggles that are going on there. And not everybody got it, you know, you would still, especially after Syracuse, there. There were still some press that we had to go back and gently correct and say, hey, like, please don't use that language.
And that, you know, yes, I was trying to tell an entertaining story and a romance and a comedy and, you know, make the audience and the people on stage feel a sense of belonging in that place that we were all sharing. But there's also a blueprint for disappointment, you know, and a blueprint for apologizing and a blueprint for, you know, if you do make a misstep, which we all do.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:22] Speaker B: How you can be accountable for what you've done and for. And this is how maybe you can go about making it right. You know, so there's. There's lots of little blueprints in there as well, and. And Nicole and. And Jacob and I, like, in the crafting of it, we had to talk a lot about. Okay, well, we can include this idea, but I don't know if there's room to include this one. And. And the scene that you originally mentioned between Ashley, Amigo and Melanin, that was a late addition for me. That was one of the last scenes I wrote before Broadway.
And it's. Because, again, it's interesting how these moments get crafted.
Actually, I'm going to put a pin in the Mel Ashley thing to do a quick explanation. Also, when Jacob and I were doing our first draft, I mentioned that I pulled mostly dialogue, the documentary, but the first thing that we did was we went through and we took all the scenes and moments that felt the most emotional to us. So the creation of this show was actually kind of impressionistic, that we had these emotional moments. And then over the course of those six years, I shuffled, restructured, added, you know, dramatic tension to give sort of a linear arc to those scenes. And reincarnation came from our, we visited Doctor Amigo at Amigo family counseling very, very early on in the process, when Hal was directing, and reincarnation came from, actually, the character Melissa didn't exist, Mel, because Melissa is not in the documentary. But there was a person Melissa who was there, and Melissa at the time said, hey, I believe in reincarnation. I think that autistic people, it's just our first time being human, and that's why we may have some challenges that the rest of you don't. And I thought to myself, holy crap, that is so profound and so beautiful, to the point where I said, this is a character in the show. This is Melissa.
I feel this person. I see this person. And so reincarnation came from that. And then I kind of had to engineer it backwards because it always felt like, oof, why? Why is Mal? And Melissa became Mal again as we worked with Imani, who's non binary. And the beautiful thing is that Melissa stopped going to the center for a while. But then real life Melissa came back in the last year and has transitioned and is Monty now. So the sort of gender fluid, gender fluidity that we created to honor our actors who are originating this part, it ended up coming full circle in a beautiful way. Anyway, I put so many pins in this. But my point is, as I was trying to figure out what is the arc between these two characters, I gotta justify reincarnation, and it's not justified. Something that I had also just gleaned in my conversations and picked up with my autistic coworkers and friends was that, was this confusion sometimes around the boundaries of friendship, and especially in early adulthood and teenage years, thinking someone was your friend, but then they weren't your friend. And again, it's making me emotional, because I think that this is something that's really relatable, not just if you're neurodivergent, but just this confusion around boundaries in relationships, period. And I get emotional because I, too, have confusion, boundaries and relationships sometimes.
And and so I just really loved this moment where Mel, who's the oldest in the group, stands up for themselves and says, hey, you really hurt my feelings in the past where I thought we were friends and you ditched me. And so actually, like, I hear you're trying to be nice, but I'm going to set a fear boundary and we're not friends. And that's why it means so much when in act two, Mel comes back and says, like, actually, like, maybe I'll change my mind. And I think that's really important, too, because especially when someone has wounded us to show. To show this autistic character also saying, like, I see that you've learned something and we can meet in a new place now and maybe have a different relationship than we had when we were 13. In a different relationship than we had six months ago. Okay, that's all my pins. I'm done.
[00:52:03] Speaker A: So what was it like opening night on Broadway when you all knew that the real life counterparts of these kids, and they're nothing, mimics, they're their own characters, but the inspiration of the characters are literally in the seats watching this show unfold.
What was that like?
[00:52:49] Speaker B: Overwhelming?
[00:52:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Very emotional.
It was, you know, there were so many elements of this show, you know, that felt like. Like looking in a mirror. In a mirror. In a mirror. Like, so many layers of emotion because, you know, in the. In the documentary, of course, there's this community, and again, like, this real community that we love. And when we went to go visit the center in person, the first thing I was struck by was how funny this community was. You know, just, like, great sense of humor, like giving each other a hard time and, gosh, and that was a really tricky part of this show, too, was that we wanted to dispel this notion that when you hear the word autism or autistic, that you think tragedy, drama, you know, which is not to underplay the challenges that autistic people, you know, are going through in this world. But, you know, I am a comedy writer. I feel like you can change hearts and minds through laughter and.
Yeah, so, like, that, that's usually my way about things.
And it's tough because, you know, people don't always, like, take things as seriously if it's a comedy. But I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this group of real people is hilarious, and so I want to honor them. And then our actors themselves were hilarious. And so, you know, you've got this one level, the documentary. They're working hard towards a goal, and it's beautiful to see the achievement of that goal, because, again, it's something that we can all see ourselves in, you know, like, no matter who you are, you're working hard for something, you face disappointment and struggle along the way.
And. And then we had the. The real life journey of our team and our actors. And, you know, so many of us, myself included, were having our Broadway debuts, and so we felt like, okay, well, we're doing this. Like, here's this community working together to make a big thing happen. We are this community working together to make a big thing happen. And then opening night, we had both of those communities all on stage. And. And so the.
The catharsis of all of us having done this thing together over the course of many, many, many years and multiple states, it just, again, I feel lucky, because not everybody has good vibes on Broadway. It's not a foreground conclusion that you love each other as a cast and team. It's not a foregone conclusion that people think that.
[00:55:25] Speaker A: People fake that. I mean, I'm sorry, but they do the Predz junket sometimes. Not always, but you're right.
You don't always get a experience like that where there's this real sense of community. And I. I really have to bring you in the call back to do a joint one about the script. She actually recommended that. That's not really my idea.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: Oh, she. I feel like you should get me, Nicole and Jacob together, because Nicole is in this great position wherever they worked on both music and script team. And so Nicole, maybe more than anybody in this show, understands the text and the music of this show in.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, she definitely does. I mean, that interview with her ran long, but, yeah, I mean, Jacob did stop traveling, but no, no, please take me with you.
Take me out of the seat. But anyway, I could literally talk to you for 5 hours easy, because this show is that important.
But wrapping up this episode, there are always two questions I like to end on, and the first one is, if there are any inspiring directors, scriptwriters, musicians who are interested in be more inclusive or just want to be self advocates, what are some through creative process, what are some action steps that you would give them as they begin this journey?
Maybe they'll even find their own. Jacob.
Yeah.
[00:58:14] Speaker B: You know, I think the easiest thing people can do if they want to begin their accessibility journey is to have an access survey. And this is something I'm really trying to push with my director friends and other writer friends. And it's tough because I don't think there's just a template up for free.
And this is such a tricky thing, too, because I want everyone to get paid for their work, but I also want to remove as many barriers. So maybe I should just make a template or something, but have an access survey that goes out to your entire team before you do any development.
And you might even think, oh, gosh, this is such a small thing. It's a table read. Do I really want to have people do a survey? But what it does is it sets the standard for open communication about people's needs. So even if. Even if I fill out the access survey and I don't have any access needs, you know your name, do you have any allergies? Is there anything you need us to know? Is there. Do you have any access needs you want us to be aware of? And again, you might think it's such a small thing I bring this up even though this is a small thing, but our very first table read, Des said, I cannot stand the sound of whistling, and my entire family is full of compulsive whistlers, and I whistle constantly. And so just knowing, I just thought to myself, if Des hadn't told me that I would be whistling all over and Des would hate me. Des would, gosh, Rebecca just never shuts up with her whistling. And it's just that tiny piece of information.
And the advice really goes back to that talent tenacity. Timing is the tenacity. Just don't give up. I moved here to New York City 17 years ago, hoping to have a Broadway music, and it took me 17 years, and I got tons of encouragement along the way, and the number seems so big. It doesn't feel like I've even been alive that long, but I have been, and so it really is. Just don't give up. Just trust that eventually you'll find your people. They say this business is about relationships, and I used to think that was a deterrent, because I don't come from an entertainment family. I don't come from New York City.
And now I can say that, in fact, not only is this business all about relationships, but that is truly the best reward.
Better than any nominations or anything, is that if you have good, strong relationships that you've.
[01:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I get to call some of the CaDS members friends, like real Prince, which blows my mind.
But I like to think that both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover our embrace their disabilities both launch and legend to the program. I'm not naive to think that either group or the groups within those groups take the same things away from every episode. So, as my guests, and we've talked about a lot of topics, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from the decode? And what do you hope those who have yet to discover are embrace their own disabilities? Take away from the zeppelin.
[01:02:27] Speaker B: Wow. Great question.
You know, in turn, I'm going to answer the second half first. People who have yet to embrace their own disabilities. Something that I did not anticipate at the beginning of this journey was how much it would affect me and my family.
You know, I mentioned that Jacob's little sister is autistic. Our director's brother is autistic. We had lots of personal relationships with the non autistic creative team, and my brother and I both have Tourette's syndrome, which is not the same as autism.
But I didn't realize how much it would mean to me to not have to mask in a room. You know, Tourette's syndrome is a tic disorder. You know, I'm very much affected by stress, lack sleep, which is a huge part of the Broadway experience.
[01:03:25] Speaker A: One edge.
Yeah. It's like, yeah, we kind of need that.
[01:03:36] Speaker B: Yeah. But there's sort of, you know, this more visible vulnerability. I felt that I didn't even realize how. How much it would affect me. And again, so getting to work in a room full of neurodivergent artists that understood on this deeper level, and this is just to go, people who haven't embraced their disabilities, people who are maybe seeking a diagnosis, people like me who passed as neurotypical or still pass as neurotypical. I'm using air quotes in many.
In many spaces and places.
The freedom to unmask and to say, hey, this is how I experience life. And again, that is such an. The way that anyone experiences life is so different. But there are these.
There are these overlapping experiences that I think the more we talk about it, the more we talk about our.
Our access needs, honestly.
And then, in terms of advocates, this is a huge one, but I try not to take it for granted. Assuming competence. You know, just.
That's a big one. Assumability. Assume competence. Assume that somebody wants to be there and can be there, and then listen. Listen.
If the disabled collaborators that you're working with are telling you something, listen to them again, simple, but.
[01:05:21] Speaker A: So if anyone wants to follow your career or maybe get in touch with you, what is the best way to do that?
[01:05:36] Speaker B: I have a small social media presence. I post about my parakeets a lot. So.
[01:05:47] Speaker A: Three, four, and five, 5 hours. Rebecca. I'm gonna do it.
[01:05:58] Speaker B: Lots to mine here. But my, my instagram handle is at Greerling. Greerling.
And again, my.
I'm often just wandering around the Hudson river or the east river. I'm not the most reachable person.
That's where you can find me walking along the river.
[01:06:30] Speaker A: I'll keep that.
I really will. And I. I really will.
We'll try to make magic happen and get you, Nicole and Jacob in the Zoom because that would be a fantastic episode and we can all just geek out about the creative podcast. And Nicole and I have actually known each other to social media for four years, but event time meeting in person was the Broadway reunion concert, and that's how the episode came to be. And that kicked off this entire series, uh, which is now six or seven episodes deep. Um, and so there's so much, so much to thank both you and Jacob and all of the creative team, the co producers, the directors.
It's the director team.
I mean, this musical literally changed my life in ways that I didn't anticipate, I didn't expect.
I was nervous going in to see the show because I'm like, I'm so removed from high school and I'm not a kid shack. I have cerebral apology. Very different.
Will I be able to get into these characters? Took all of two, three minutes.
That's because of the actors, but also because of you and Jacob. And so that to bring it all back to the beginning, that is where the creative fantasy comes in and why I have nurtured that creative fantasy since the Broadway reunion concert. God out of been obsessed with that happen, if only in my head. And I will love, and I'll say that on the next episode. I would love to see you and Nicole co writed together and Jacob write the music.
I mean, that would be fantastic. How do you write a sequel based on a documentary where you already told all the stories? Well, how did you write the first one on a documentary that had I just seen the documentary, I would be like, well, I'm really glad great kids like Vince exists.
Could Vince be a musical? Hell no.
In my mind it would be like, no, but I would say that about every documentary because that concept would completely foreign. So again, I'm just indebted to everyone involved with this amazing show for countless reasons. I wish I'd saw it upwards of 30 times. Like some people who jacobs highlighted in Doctor Omega, I judge how many times have he seen it there? So much to still talk about. And I look forward to getting unicorn and Jacob on a zoom. And I wish you and Jacob nothing but the very bad's creativity, because you two are a power team.
I hope you never walked with anyone else. And I hope she never walked with anyone else.
And I don't say that you created gold. You and I cannot wait to see what you and Jacob do next. I hope he doesn't take edge long. And if you ever need an amateur actor with Cpenna, you know where to buy me.
[01:12:34] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[01:12:35] Speaker A: Shakespeare.
[01:12:38] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, Keith, thank you so much for saying, I'm just plugging my computer in because it's telling me my battery is low. Oh, my gosh.
Thank you so much for saying that. And, you know, I always like to throw it back to the autistic community because they every step along the way, every autistic collaborator that we had. And then I like our incredible audience and fans and the other actors, honestly, like, even just the actors who came and auditioned and came to callbacks but didn't get cast in the show, that this show would not be what it is without the feedback and the support of the autistic community. So honestly, I'm going to speak for Jacob. Like, we are the lucky ones, you know? Like, the community, like, really embraced us in an incredible way.
[01:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:13:24] Speaker B: And, you know, and I hope. I hope that we did them right and continue to do so.
[01:13:42] Speaker A: You have been listening to disability empowerment. Now I would like to thank my guts, you, Oledzina, and the disability empowerment team that made this episode possible.
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