Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Disability Empowerment now season four. I'm your host, Keith Murphy Dicinsini. Today I'm talking to Jim Roden, who is the lead pastor at the Journey Church in Tucson, Arizona. Jim, welcome to the show.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: My pleasure. So good to be here with you, Keith.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: So we originally met several years ago when my doctor at the time, Dr. Kill Wolf, told me about a ministry program called Component, which is set up to minister to people with disabilities.
And she told me about the Journey Church and mentioned you specifically.
And that's how we became acquainted.
My doctor at the time, you've been with the Journey Church for quite a while. And we were talking before we started the recording about the project that you specialized in in your theology degree. Could you talk more about that and how the theology of disability has really shaped your entire lives, your entire family's lives and really be. Become a Touch Stone?
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Yes.
Yeah. So, Keith, yes, we, we did meet. I think it was probably 2016 or 2017.
Right. And by the way, I just came back into the office and Janet Payne is here.
Janet Payne was the director of Capernaum at the time.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: And that's how I was introduced in.
Carol Wolf's daughter was a part of Capernaum.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: So that we're just talking about the past. And it was Janet, we were in a season here at Journey Church where we were really embracing what we believe. What we still believe is a very clear, God given call to our church specifically first, but not only for our church, but to be deeply involved with, in reaching out to and including and belonging to and befriending our friends with disabilities. So Janet is now on staff here as our disability ministry director. So she helps with all areas of ministry, being inclusive and really helping us to understand how do we do this? How do we do this better not ministering to them, but also just doing life and, and being ministered to by them. So that's just, you know, those opening remarks, my project that we were chatting about.
It was in about 2016 that I began a doctorate at Talbot Biola Christian University and it was a doctorate in theology. The specific track was in church health or church growth, church planting and the like.
And it was the first year, it was early on in our, in our experience here at the Journey of really embracing this as a core mission and core ministry of our, our church.
We were early on in that, that experience and God was just doing some beautiful things and blessing us in numerous ways because of our friends with disabilities, being with us, partly because of our openness to him and what he wanted to do, but partly just having so many delightful image of God bearers that have some special challenges in their life. God was blessing our church.
And so it was early on in that doctorate program that I thought that maybe I should do my dissertation, my research in this arena. And what ended up is 362 page dissertation on this question that had never been asked before. We couldn't find this anywhere in the literature or in the, in the academia. But this question, what is the relationship between disability ministry and church health?
What is that it? Does it help it, does it hurt it, does it, is it mutually exclusive? What, what are the, the, you know, the intersection of those two. Two things. So yeah, that was the project that I completed and graduated, I think in 2020, end of 2020 is when I completed that.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: So what words got you to wonder and ask about that question? Because you're right, it's not really asked or thought about too much.
And so how, particularly in regards to the American church. So what motivated you? Yeah, to really ponder that question.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So how much time do we have?
[00:06:42] Speaker A: The answer.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah, how much time do we have?
Yeah.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: Okay, I keep making that joke. Okay. I'm so going.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah, let me see if I could, I could just thumbnail sketch the story. Okay.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: So I came to Tucson, meaning I only meant to be here for three years.
And I was down here to be a, an associate pastor.
And then after three years it would get me to about age 35.
I was planning on taking my wife and children and going to church planting somewhere in Arizona.
And it was in those first three years that we discovered that our youngest child, he was only 14 months old, he had his first epileptic seizure and it threw us. And basically it was, it's extreme. Okay.
And he had a nine day run of dozens of epileptic seizures as a baby.
And so his diagnosis is idiopathic, meaning no known cause. Irretractable, meaning you cannot stop them. And idiopathic, irretractable epilepsy with delays. So if you met timothy Today, he's 21 years old. Delightful, delightful person.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: And Timothy was used of God to take a highlighter to this area of mission and ministry and the scriptures and theology and church history.
And so I was highly attuned to that.
Plus I actually, because of the challenges and struggles and the mourning and just it was such a heavy burden to see my son struggle so much and the impact on our children, church planting went out the window at that point. I know some people are tough enough to do it all. But we were exhausted. We were. We had grief and sorrow and, you know, we had a medically fragile child. And so I. God used that to slow me down here. And three years became six years. And at the six year mark, the church voted me in 100% to be the next lead pastor.
And so I started in, in 2009 as the senior pastor. And I'm a gospel guy. I love to see people that don't have a Jesus background come to know the Lord. And we're trying to reach people for the Lord, and we're trying to grow the church in quality and quantity.
And Keith, you probably know this. Most churches in Pima county are really small. We struggle.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: And.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: And historically, Tucson has not, as a culture, been the most gospel receptive to the church. So it's a hard place.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: And you got it. And so that was a second catalyst for me to be really open. God, what do you want to do here? And during the season that we were saying, lord, we'll. We'll do anything that you call us to, I met Janet and Janetta, and I know you know them both, and they had been coming to our church. They were the Tucson capernaum area directors.
And because of some decisions being made on the national level with young life, they were tasked with the job to try to figure out what. What were they going to be doing? What would they do for their students that were aging out of capernaum ministry, which is a branch of young life.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: And so age 26, hey, we. We've got to create some new things for them. And the recommendation was to go to churches. Maybe churches would start ministries. And when Janet and Janetta sat in this office right here in 2015 or 2016, maybe it was 2014. I don't remember the date exactly, but when they said, would you be open and it wouldn't cost you anything?
And we could serve and minister to families, and not all of them are Christian families.
Would you be open to and willing to. And I go, when do we start? I mean, you're. And they were. Their jaw hit the floor, like, what? And I go, why the strange look?
And they go, because you're the fourth pastor we've sat with, but the first one that was open to this.
So God had been at work in my life, and God was working in their life.
And what came out of that is, here we are maybe eight years later.
That is so deeply embedded in our DNA. So if you look in one dimension, my son Timothy has had more impact for the Kingdom of God in my life and my wife and our marriage, our family. He's radically impacted our, our three other children and our son in laws and our daughter in law and so on so forth. But he has deeply impacted our church in opening us up and me up and saying yes immediately to young life. Capernaum being here and then friends for life was birthed out of that. That is still deeply embedded in our church.
Disability inclusion Sundays that that's where you and I came together. Yeah. So that's the story. So when I was doing my dissertation the first year they try to. It's a three year program before you start to do your project. Then you got three more years to complete it. But they start you early thinking about what might you research. And I grabbed a couple of my cohort members and said hey, I got this thing going on at Journey Church and in my life. And one of them is Pastor Lance Hahn. He's pastor of a megachurch in Sacramento. And he goes, Jim, you have to write on that. And I text message Janet and Janetta, hey, would you guys help me if I did this? They're like, oh, you got it. And so all arrows pointed in that direction. And so I actually did research on three different churches, not our own. I could have cheated and made it easier, but I wanted this to actually contribute to research. And so it was qualitative research, primarily case studies on three other churches in Arizona and California that are like our us to in order to really dive into that topic.
What is the relationship? Is it helpful? Hurtful? What are the benefits? What are the challenges? So yeah, that's that story.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Wow. So really it was your youngest son that kick started your lives mention really?
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Yes. Yep. Yeah.
A major, major part of our lives and my legacy here at Journey Church. And then even it's not only even Arizona, but our church is known nationally.
And we're not a huge church.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: No.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: But. But we're on the national stage in terms of disability inclusion.
And one, one of our. The ways that we describe that if you've got it, if we've got time, you know, when we started the, the adventure, you know, we started thinking like, hey, this is a really important mission from us for them.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: And this is really meaningful to Jesus. And so this is good. And we do this because it's right.
But along the journey we discovered that we're not just ministering to them and doing something for them, that they are actually with us and a part of us and we are they and they are we. And that's when the lines start to get blurred in a good way, in a holy way.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: And that we start to recognize we're not without challenges. Every single one of us has challenges and some kind of disability.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:54] Speaker B: And then over the years that evolved even further.
And instead of ministry to them and with them, we started to experiencing ministry from them. That they were fully fledged contributors to discipling and contributing and building us up and showing us more of the Lord in his kingdom and what is described in the Scriptures, both Old Testament and New Testament. And so that's, that's been our journey and how that's worked out over the years here. And it does go back to the Lord getting my attention through my youngest son.
But what we also discover is that there are people that they don't have it directly in their family of origin, a child or a loved one. They just read the Bible and they arrive at the same conclusion. I wish I could say that's all it took for me.
Just read the Scriptures and you'll see the ministry of Jesus in the heart of the Lord all throughout the Old Testament, all the way into the New Testament.
But for, for me, as hard headed and hard hearted as I am, the Lord needed to break up some of that, that hard, hard soil and put it right in, in the midst of my family. So Tim has, has probably transformed the church and done more to impact people than I ever will and huge.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Unaware of the elites. You were telling me that there were some delays in his development and that he's.
I don't want to say eternally child like.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's true, Keith. It is true. There's some aspects of Tim that I, when we walk together, there's sometimes that I'll see girls maybe a little bit younger than him probably glance at him like, oh, there's a handsome young man.
But when you. So he, he doesn't always immediately look like he's got cognitive delays and disabilities, but when you interact with him, there's a simple childlikeness to him.
There's an innocence that is. Not to say that he is immaculate. He definitely is, is a rascal. But yeah, there's a simple. So we would say maybe he, but he's still growing at 21. Neuroplasticity. He's still growing and so we don't know how, how, how long and how much growth. But yeah, he's probably similar to a four or five or six year old in certain aspects. So he's not entirely aware of all of the impact that he's had on this world.
I try to encourage him and let him know regularly that not only in our story and the culture of our church, but also Timothy, during the school year, volunteers here about three times per week. And he does something called mission crew. And they work hard. I mean, they work outside, they work inside, they set up tables and chairs. And so Tim is a very involved, contributing member of this church.
Not only in the big picture in the DNA of the church, but also even in the week in and week out of the life of the church.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: Can you talk about kids? I know your family now. Well. I see pictures on social media. You have a beautiful family.
I wonder if you would be comfortable talking about what it would like for your other children to grow up alongside a person, their brother.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: Who had disabilities.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: It would literally baked into the DNA of not only what the journey church has become, but your entire family dynamic. And so, and I know some of your children, their very accomplished, very God feeling, very God loving people.
Yeah.
They have a very strong connection to disability.
How then you think back to how you would teach them about their brother and his disabilities and how that progressed throughout their lives. Yeah, Judge, I'm sure.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: It played a bedrock in shaping who they are today.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yes. And I'll include there were some very challenging and you might even describe them as negative impacts. And so if I can talk about that, I don't believe that they stay that way. I believe that God has redeemed those things. But I also don't want to paint it in rainbows and unicorns, you know, and say it was all just so wonderful. And it was so. No, it was hard.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: And it was. And it was scary. So they have this baby brother. This baby brother. And there were nights when they knew they could hear it from their bedrooms.
There were many years on end that Timothy slept next to our bed in our bedroom in what we described as the cozy coop. And the cozy coop was two mattresses stacked up next to our queen size bed so that we could monitor his seizures.
Most of his seizures were during sleep, but they absolutely broke into the daytime. So there were, there were nights when he would have nine to 12 epileptic seizures. And we're talking full blown grand mal seizures, tonic clonic, where you can hear him gasping for air and making noises and then the next day he's wiped out. He would miss upwards of two weeks of school at a time.
And they, our children watched mom and dad's fear and grief and just a heaviness, but also our faith and hopefulness in God, making something of this, either bringing healing or relief or purpose. Any of those three would be good enough. We like healing best, but trusting that God knew what he was doing and that he was in control. So our children, we knew, we know and we know the statistics. We know families that have profound disabilities in their household, that those marriages are something like only one out of five survives the marriages. Very high divorce rate just because it gets to be too much. And one of the parents says, I'm out. I don't, I, I'm gonna run for my happiness somewhere else.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: And so that sounds terrible. And it is, it is.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: We were talking before. People are medsy.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: We, yeah.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Oh, we.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: In pain. Pain. We have a saying in the therapeutic world and the pastoral world.
Hurt people hurt people like I am hurt. This is heavy. I'm disappointed, I'm disillusioned. This is not the great dream that I planned for my life. This is not what I thought. This is much harder. And so we do stupid things, self medicating things, reactive things, and we cause further pain. So I tell that much of the story to know that my children were brought up in a home that had extra layers of anxiety and then add to this. And I don't want to make too much of this, but pastors out there that, senior pastors in particular, the kinds of burdens that we carry for leadership and Sunday's always coming and our weekends are not made for vacation, they're made for ministry. There were extra layers, but we, we were aware of these things. We know that our children had to deal with those things. We tried to be very intentional and date our children very specifically. We had a rotation where every Friday morning one of the parents would go out with one of the children for a special heart to heart. And this is my wife's genius. And so we kept that rhythm very clearly so that our children knew that Timothy was not the only person that mattered in the family system.
The Lord was gracious in all three of our other children.
Yes, they were marked by this kind of anxiety, increased anxiety in the home.
Yes, that has impacted them. But the redemption of that is, it probably likely kept them very grounded to the Lord, to their faith, all of them. And now they're all in their, their mid-20s, they're, they're married, everyone except for Tim. And they're all serving the Lord, walking with the Lord in their personal walk.
They've all intentionally married like minded spouses that are active in the church, active in the ministry of the Lord in the world, and all three of them profoundly committed to or interested in or involved in disability. Disability ministry, disability inclusion. All of them have been deeply marked by that. So you mentioned. Yeah. Capernaum. My daughter just finished up three years as the disability. Well, Capernaum director here in Tucson. So she actually, in time, took over that ministry and did a magnificent job. Yeah. And now she's actually come on staff. My staff hires my children. I don't hire them. I'm not into nepotism, but my staff wants to hire my children. So that gives you an idea of the kinds of people that they have become.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that.
Yes, it does. Absolutely. As a father, what is it like hearing from your staff? Oh, we just hired another one of your offspring. I mean, you did said you're not into nepotism, and I totally get that.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: And pride comes before the fall of that. But there much be a swell of godly pride.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: The journey Han very much intended in this case, really.
Beard.
Amazing truth.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I have two responses. The first, when my staff wants to hire another from the rodent clan, I'm like, oh, timeout, timeout. Are you sure?
And here's why. Here's why.
I've been doing this 28 years. Okay. I've been in vocational ministry, two different churches. And what my experience is, when you get someone on a church staff, it can be the beginning of the end for them because they get on the inside. And it is not Shangri La, it is not Camelot. It's hard.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: No, you're.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: I know. And so you're trying to do.
I've heard someone say, say this to pastors. You're going to be asked to do what you cannot do with what you do not have, and keep doing that for the rest of your life.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: And so it's a very. It's kind of a cynical view, but there's times when it feels very true. And so the stress on a staff, in an elder board, in a. In a leadership team is pretty extreme. And then we're all human. We think that we're just loving God and loving each other. Well. But we have personality issues, eq, emotional intelligence issues. And so church staff can be hard. And then if you have financial struggles and you got to cut back or it's all hard. So my first response is, are you sure?
But then secondly.
Well, maybe it's three responses. First off, asking the staff, are you sure? Secondly, my daughter is interested. Okay. Something's going right there. Because if she was raised in a ministry household.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: And she is Open to it.
She knows what she's getting into.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: And she wants that. That's some kind of enormous win. But then the final response is what you were describing is a humble, overwhelming grace upon grace. Pridefulness. Not. Not a bad pride, but.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Feeling so blessed by God that how many. How many pastors, kids, missionary kids that go sideways and want nothing of it or don't have the character?
So. So in this, like, Lord, this is. This is grace upon grace. And yeah, we were. We were intentional. We tried hard.
We apologized when we blew it.
I give more credit to my wife than me, but that's like the outcome, you know, God, God's been good.
[00:32:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your. Your family is amazing.
You are so blessed in so many ways to your family. And it showed to the church.
And we were talking before about how Comparum is its own separate program. And you alluded to it, but in my mind, in seeing how well Component and Johnny Church had matched together, it's almost like and Vin to be hyperbolic jets. It builds like the perfect marriage. It builds like two halves of the same whole. Yeah, it really does. And you don't.
Well, you don't get that Albin anywhere in this life.
How long had.
Had that been?
Well, you mentioned 2014. 2015.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: How. How had Component shaped the journey and how had the journey shaped Component?
[00:34:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So Capernaum was that ministry that existed externally, that. That what they were looking for their next home for their students that were graduating. So technically, Capernaum is a part of another not for profit called Young Life, but those students aging out and then a partnership with Capernaum. How can we resource Capernaum? How can our church's mission board give support to the Capernaum director or the Capernaum ministry? Kids going to camp, the director's salary, those kinds of things. And then our initial chapter of Friends for Life that were coming out of Capernaum. And Capernaum beyond was another club that was for a little bit older that existed at the time. The DNA and the flavor of the ministry, really a ministry designed for those that don't have a lot of history with. With Christianity or the church or the Bible. So cookies on the bottom shelf. A lot of joy, a lot of friendship, a lot of relationship, some games and then some Jesus talk. Conversation from the Gospels. So our first chapter of Friends for Life. Friends for Life was and is our ministry that's under our not for profit as a church. So Capernaum feeding that in its DNA, coming in to Friends for Life. Friends for Life being a ministry that's specifically for them, that is their place. But here's what was happening at the same time where you and I met. Yeah, at the same time that we were. We were including and developing that ministry that was after hours, if you will, an outreach ministry of our church. We decided that we weren't going to just have something over there for them. We decided that we were as a church, a local church, Sunday morning gatherings, small groups, children's ministry, you name it, that we were going to start to as a church, directly inviting, including, befriending, celebrating, enfolding in involving our friends with disabilities.
And so it was all at the same time we're hitting this thing. And yeah, Capernaum was a major catalyst for all of that.
And so the way we met was the first year we decided to do this was 2016.
And I know there's a lot of churches, maybe they have a ministry for their friends with disabilities. And we applaud that. We say anything is better than nothing.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: But for us, we said instead of a ministry in some of those churches, what they'll do once a year is they'll do like a disability ministry Sunday where they feature that maybe everyone wears a T shirt. And it's like the major theme of that Sunday we said, when we weren't actually being reactive to that. But the way we started was let's put three Sundays on the calendar where that is the theme, and our friends with disabilities and the people who love them. So that includes parents, caregivers, you know, our special ed department, teachers that serve in the school district that we're in. All those are our special guests, our guests of honor. And so it was really a church service. Everything is pointed toward the Lord Jesus Christ because it is his church. But our special guests of honor today are our friends with disabilities and those who love them. So we did that three times the first year and then I think two times the second year, back to three times the third year. And that's when you. Somewhere in those first three years of those special Sundays, you were a guest speaker.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: And yeah, I believe I would get speaker Leeds Whites.
I did a testimonial and then I actually maybe co taught a little of God's poem.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that. Yep.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: And yeah, and before that, I had never really ventured out and taught at another church. That was in 2017.
Yeah, I had go. I still go to a church on the UA camp. It's called Damascus Road. I've been going there for over a decade. And at that time, I was on the teaching team. And then. So it was a very new experience. Experience of going outside the community that I had grown up in. I started going there when I came in to do my graduate degree in public administration.
And so.
But I was very happy to do it because I saw how much authenticity and real love and care that the Journey provided. Like, yeah, I never.
I never felt like the token.
This is a example of what we should all aspire to. If that is, then you all did serve a massive refund from up above.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Because that should not who I am.
But I mean, you were mentioning that something is better than nothing. Yes, but this wasn't something better than nothing. Wasn't some Sunday you judge.
Do I turn heavenly points or whatever.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:42:12] Speaker A: It's the bedrock of what the Journey stands for. And that's why going there several times in the church is about a half an hour or 45 minutes away from me. Whereas.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Damascus. Yeah. And that's your community.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Ryan. Pastor Ryan. That's a good man.
[00:42:47] Speaker A: Yeah, he's my.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah, he's my friend.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And.
[00:42:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:51] Speaker A: Ryan Millage. Great. And. But it's traveling the distance and really going on the Johnny. Because I know that no matter when I go there, I will be embraced.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Ads.
Not only a fellow Pratt Kitchener, but someone who is doing something empowering.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: A ministry, in a sense. And so it's the. The car ride to and from the Journey. Church is just a part of the Sunday morning when I happen to get there, because it.
You walk the walk, you advertise it, you're not ashamed of it. It's not a back room somewhere in your main building. You're out and proud about it. You promote it.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: That's very repetitive because there are so many charges and no events. They do the bare minimum if they do anything at all. And that needs to be addressed and.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: To be changed. Because you mentioned earlier that Journey is the Journey. Church is naturally known for what it does.
I would hope that the. The mention of the be all in all men of Journey is to where you're just one of hundreds.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: Hundreds. Yes.
[00:45:18] Speaker A: American judges who not only cater to ministry for people with disabilities, but allow them to minister to you, to teach you. Because as Jude said, they are us, we are them.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: No separation, Judge. Like in the Bible. There is no separation.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. And. And I'll tell you those.
You know, if I can tell you what's happened since 2017, we no longer do disability. Disability Celebration Sundays. Why is. Because every Sunday it's more seamless that on any given Sunday, you will have representation. And we're not taking a highlighter to it.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: And.
[00:46:21] Speaker B: And we're not punching a slot or a ticket to make sure we have that. But you will see inclusion, whether it's a young man with autism reading the opening call to prayer or scripture reading, or my dear friend Lindy doing sign language with the work. She's. She got down syndrome.
But signing the worship set from the platform, you'll see those kinds of things that are just a part of our culture. Furthermore, distractions from individuals with autism or cognitive delays. There's vocalizations that's not only tolerated, but completely expected and appreciated.
And so that has been a radical change and growth in our culture over time.
And to take it back to something you said, the churches that don't know about this, that don't know the benefits, the blessings might be a better term. They're just missing out in so many churches that think, oh, we couldn't afford that. We don't have the funding or the people for a ministry to them. But. And that's not what we're asking.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: No.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Every church to actually want them, to love them, to appreciate, to target with the love of the gospel. I'll just say this, that on average, our families, and we're not talking about children only, there are families all over, in every neighborhood, in every community, in every city, in every nation around the world. There are households that have adults, adult children with disabilities. They're adults, and they are more open to what the church has to offer, including the gospel. They're more open than their neighbors around them that don't have disabilities.
And pastors are looking for people to reach and minister to.
And yet this is an invisible population that's all around us, that if we'll just put those two together and let them know that they're. They're welcome and wanted and that when they come, they are appreciated and not told to take their noisy teenager or someone and use the cry room or. I mean, we have stories of this from all over the country, but instead, all the pastor has to do in a distracted moment and say, that's the sound of one of our friends with special needs worshiping the Lord. Aren't you so glad that he is here today? I mean, you can stop in the middle of your preaching or teaching and just make a note and then go back to preaching. And that changes that disciples our people and changes culture over time. I've had so many opportunities to do that.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: That.
[00:49:57] Speaker B: Now that's just. And I'm just saying to those church leaders and pastors, you're missing out. You're missing out on the heart of.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Jesus because people are afraid.
People afraid.
They are afraid to do that, to view it as anything other than a interruption.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: Their. Their. Their message.
Yeah. Sunday service, which is.
Which is anthemical to what you judge described it.
[00:50:49] Speaker B: Yeah, the exact up.
So, Keith, have you ever heard this phrase, more is caught than is taught?
More is caught. So when the. The. The minister, the preacher, the teacher, it has their manuscript and they're teaching the scriptures and they hear a distraction and they're asking an usher to quiet that person so that they can be heard on their manuscript, not realizing that what they just did is working counter to the gospel message that they are trying to proclaim, rather than capitalizing on the moment and reinforcing the gospel message with saying, aren't you so glad they are doing exactly what God brought them here to do today?
And they're. They're just.
Just perfect right where they're at. Aren't you so glad they're here today? Okay, let's go back to verse 14. And it's that quick that you're doubling and tripling and quadrupling the impact of the Kingdom of God message that you are proclaiming. Because that sounds more like Jesus.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: And that's what we see in the scripture.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Yes. We have many examples of that in scripture.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: So if there are any inspiring advocates or theology students who want to join you in making the American church more accessible, more inclusive in terms of theology and disability, and there's a group I mentioned, it's the Theology.
It's the Institute on Theology and Disability.
[00:53:07] Speaker B: Yes. Yep.
[00:53:09] Speaker A: You most likely already know about that.
[00:53:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: I literally just found out about them last year.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: I'm like, what? How long have you guys been existent? And I'm just feeling about you now. It's like meeting the beetles for the time in person.
So if there are any advocates or inspiring theologians who want to join you in the call of making the American church more accessible, more conclusive, what are some action steps you can give them as they begin their journey and their walk.
[00:54:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I'll name a couple more organizations that are trying to crack this nut, and I'll tell you the nut to crack. That's really difficult.
[00:54:24] Speaker A: All you did, Judge. Another mudstered seed.
[00:54:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Good, good.
So. So I'm gonna say Steve Gurvich with Key Ministries.
Key Ministries is something to look up. I spoke at their national conference a year ago on my research findings. Did a quick take there at the national conference, Steve Gurvich called me a month in advance and said why are you coming? You're a senior pastor. We have so few senior pastors that care about this.
And so we had an hour long call Zoom interview and we're, we're all trying to crack that same nut. How do we get this into the brainwave activity of more church leaders? Because it's not what it should be. The other group that I've interacted with on Zoom calls and tried to give some insight is the Tim Tebow foundation and Shine on. So this is not night to shine, which is a one time event per year. But what about the other 52 or 51 weeks out of the year instead of one big night? What about 52 weeks and same thing, same thing. How do we go from this is a nice idea to do something for them to inclusive and it's got to be owned by the senior leadership. Why are those they so insular and resistant to this? And so that's the first thing. And, and I will say this, that Gen X pastors and older seem to be the nut to crack. I see some hope in millennials and gen zers. We don't have as many pastors coming from those generations yet, but they seem to be more gospel centered, more Kingdom of God minded, more open to ministering to those who have been underserved by the church.
And I'm just saying that there seems to be some more hope there. So that's just laying the groundwork if you happen to be one of them.
I applaud you and say this is, we are on the brink of a wave of inclusive disability ministry. We're on the precipice more in the next generation of ministers and church leaders are going to be aware of this. And I applaud that. It's great hope and man, it's, it's life. It's more of, I think It's Luke chapter 14, the Kingdom of God, the end time banquet party.
Those, the cool kids that were first invited were too busy to show up. Yeah, the ones that showed up were those on the margins that were unthought of.
And listen, we're, we're going to grow the Kingdom of God and local churches with the people that will show up.
And these are the people that want to be included and will show up. So let that just be a highlighter from the scriptures that. Stay with it.
Think of how to Lead your people to reach out, minister, include, unfold, and then begin to rethink their own identity and recognize that all of us have struggles and disabilities of various kinds and do life and ministry and mission together. And don't be surprised when you find that they ministered to you far more than what you could have ever given them.
So there's blessings that come supernaturally and relationally in this equation.
[00:58:47] Speaker A: Very well said, my friend.
We could talk for hours and I hope and pray we do many more episodes together because it's been a absolute joy talking to you. In wrapping up, I, I like to thank that boldness advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities watch and listen to this program. I'm not naive enough to think that both groups are grouped within those groups, get the same things or take away the same things from every episode. We've talked about great many things in this episode. So as my guess, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from the temperature?
And what do you hope that those who have yet to embrace or discover their own disabilities take away from the jumping zone?
[01:00:21] Speaker B: So for advocates that have disabilities, I want you to know that you are involved in just a great, great ministry or a mission. I want you to know that you are dearly loved by the Lord Jesus Christ. I want you to know that if, if you've had a bad experience at church or with a church, I want to apologize on behalf of my people, fellow pastors that mean well, that are ignorant, that think that only a few churches in the world need to be special like us.
They see themselves as targeting other people groups. And the message that's come across, you know, 10 to 15% of the population has some kind of significant defined disability. That's a lot of people in the United States and the world.
[01:01:21] Speaker A: Hold on. It's more like 20. Great.
[01:01:25] Speaker B: So I was going in the right direction. 10 to 15 to 20%. Yeah, yeah. You are an image bearer. You've been created in the image of God. No matter what's happened to you, organically, physically, developmentally, the Lord Jesus loves you. The gospel is for you. The church is for you.
And if the church has. Has whiffed, I am so sorry.
Stay with it.
You belong and you can be a part of significant transformation for the church. Big C, but also local church, little C.
And you are wanted. You are wanted. You have something to offer. The gospel of Jesus Christ is for you. And you have much to offer the kingdom of God.
And then the second group that you mentioned, Those who have not discovered. You think that you're typical, Correct?
[01:02:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah. The reality is, is life and life in this world of mankind, the kingdom of man, life under the sun. In the words of King Solomon in Ecclesiastes, life after the fall. Genesis chapter three.
This is a brutal journey and all of us are broken.
And be quick, be very quick to identify and agree with and embrace the reality that we're all broken in some way.
And then use that to be humble and generous and open hearted, open handed and open minded to others that have other kinds of disabilities.
Befriend them and include them.
Bring them into your small group, have them for dinner, make sure they're invited and welcomed at your church.
Be the person that redefines cool.
It's not fashion, it's not bling.
It's the kind of quality of person you are that sees no distinctions in others and loves people as Jesus would love them and include them.
So yeah, we're all broken. And that should be a call for great humility and kindness to others.
[01:04:18] Speaker A: Jim, if anyone wants to find out more about the Journey Church or about friends life, how would they do that?
[01:04:33] Speaker B: You could go and do a simple web search and if you want the actual web address www.and of course we don't have to do that anymore, right? We're we're in this new age.
Journeyefc.org J O U R N E Y E F C as in evangelical free church journeyefc.org or you could just Google it Journey Church Tucson and that would get you to our church website and you can surf around and find friends for life. You could find a page on disability inclusion. You could find my email, Pastor Tyler's email, Janet Payne, our disability ministry director, inclusion director and any of us would be more than happy to interact. You could find our phone number there. We make ourselves and even our cell phones as accessible as possible.
[01:05:37] Speaker A: Jim, thank you for coming on the show. As I said, I hope we do another episode soon. We still have four more hours to go as the joke goes fixing. I'm kidding around when I'm saying yeah. Will you be the gadget who does.
[01:06:05] Speaker B: A five hour episode that's called the long form.
[01:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah that's for way long form a gym. I want to thank you again for your ministry, for your friendship, for your beautiful example of a godly family and judge you walking and living your faith day in and day out. I am always in awe of you and what you represent and well Keith, I'm gonna, I'm in church. It's lucky to have you.
[01:06:54] Speaker B: Well, I'm gonna try the rest of my life to live up to whatever you just said.
[01:07:09] Speaker A: You have been listening to Disability Empowerment Now. I would like to thank my guests. You are listener and the Disability Empowerment team that made this episode possible.
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