Giraffes, Neopronouns, and the Dog Magnet Myth

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome to disability Empowerment now miniseries Dating with Disabilities. I'm your co host, Keith Murphy de Ginsini. I'm also with my co host, Liv Merelli. Andrew Ga had the week off. Liv, welcome back to the show. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hey. I'm so excited to be back. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Really? Why? [00:00:41] Speaker A: I know. And now there's one less of us, so there's going to be even less banter going on. It's like, oh, my God, I'm in the hot seat. I'm like, the spotlight is just right here. Oh, God. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Well, you actually do have two bright spotlights behind you. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Don't feel bad. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Yeah, no, the lighting, the lighting in the, in my office is actually wild. I, I'm, I'm on the lookout for, like, lamps and stuff because this is just not. I hate this so much. This is so. [00:01:14] Speaker B: They're coming. I'm pretty sure you can find them anywhere. [00:01:20] Speaker A: It's gonna be big. It's gonna be big, Dave. It's indoor plumbing. It's gonna be really big. [00:01:28] Speaker B: So congratulations. Your first poetry book, Fire in the Waiting Room, is about to come out this month, so I just want to plug that real quick. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, it's actually out. You can buy it right now from gameoverbooks.com both in print and at digitally. That what we're promoting now is my book release, which is happening, you know, three months after the book comes. Came out. Because time isn't real. And you know, this, the, the whole promotion of this book is operating on crip time. Like, I, I, I just, I'm like. Yeah, I'm just not. I, I'm just like, vibing. We're. You know what? It's fine. It's gonna be okay. My publisher has no problem with it, so I'm not gonna make myself feel too bad. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Game Over Books is a really interesting name. I'll tell you what. Game over makes me think of my dating life. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Really? Yeah. Truth. Truth. Hard reset. That. That's what that. Yeah. [00:02:43] Speaker B: Hard read said. I was talking to a friend last night and telling her about that mini that I'm doing with two codes. And I said I would literally have no problem uttering these exact words. My dating life had been a Shakespearean tragedy on speed. [00:03:20] Speaker A: No, that's, That's. Yep. Oh, yeah. I, I actually feel really fortunate that I only hate one of my exes and only one of them is actually bad for me. And they're not the same ex like. Angus, quiet. I hope you can edit that out in post. Pause. Angus, quiet. He. He's afraid of my brother's stuffed animals. So there's a. There's a big collection of my brother stuffed animals down here in the basement. And he's frightened. [00:03:53] Speaker B: Stop. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Stop. Please stop. This is the worst time for this to happen. It's fine. [00:04:00] Speaker B: It's totally fine. [00:04:02] Speaker A: This is. This is reality tv, folks. [00:04:05] Speaker B: My new producer. It's probably gonna adore that. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Oh, good, I'm glad. So, yeah, I have a life size stuffed giraffe that my best friend got me because I love giraffes and. And my dog is afraid of it. We have to move it to another place because my dog thinks it's real and it just yells at it. He'll forget it's there for a little bit, and then he'll just remember that it's there and then he'll bark at it for. [00:04:37] Speaker B: So giraffes and dating people. You've heard it here first. Somehow those two things make sense. [00:04:50] Speaker A: We're gonna tie it back. We're gonna tie it back. O. So let me see if I can, like, make some magic happen with this segue. So the reason that a giraffe is my favorite animal is because I walk on forearm crutches, as you know. And when I kind of bend over to pick something up, I feel like I am very giraffe. Like, have you ever seen a giraffe try to drink water? They have to kind of like bend out really far. That's what it's like to pick up something when you're on crutches. The crutches have to go way, way out. And then my. My neck kind of leans down, so I'm tying it back. There is a reason because I think that the giraffe should be the cp, at least for me, emblem because that's. That's what I look like. [00:05:33] Speaker B: So, Dave, that reminds me of one of my exes. And you know who, bud, we don't share names here. [00:05:45] Speaker A: We don't talk about Bruno. You're just gonna keep it really low key. It's fine. [00:05:52] Speaker B: We don't talk about. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Did I just throw out a reference? Okay, that's. Yeah, cut that out. That's a reference to a song. If you don't know it. [00:05:59] Speaker B: We cut. Okay, well, yeah, it. Her. Her favorite animal is also credentially a giraffe. [00:06:11] Speaker A: See? Okay, I. You know that It's. It's a thing. I'll ask her if it's for the same reason. I'll ask her if it's for the same reason. [00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very much a thing. So. Yeah. Well, good. Tidying it. [00:06:29] Speaker A: That was good. That was really good. I appreciate that segue. That was really good. [00:06:33] Speaker B: I mean, if I can do it by commenting on your real name and why you don't go by it, which really freaked you two out. [00:06:47] Speaker A: I was like, what are we doing right now? I'm having an identity crisis. What is happening? [00:06:52] Speaker B: Which, like, don't worry, don't worry. I will magically think of something here. And I did. And I did. [00:07:03] Speaker A: One of the, the cool things about me if you, if you do date me. One of the perks to dating me if is if you are going by a different name. If you choose halfway through our relationship for any reason to change your name, I will forget the old name immediately. I. I don't know why. It is my superpower. So if you for any reason need to change it, I will forget what the old one was absolutely. Immediately. So that ties it back. Ties back a little bit. What I was saying. I, I think this is a very, like, queer person thing, but I really only dislike one of my exes and I. One of my other exes is the only one that like, I broke up with badly. And they're not the same one. Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, like I, I really genuinely. Because I'm deathly afraid that she is actually going to like, listen to this as my public profile. Like, it's a little bit bigger, you know, like the one that I broke up with badly. I don't feel, I don't have any bad feelings. You know what I mean? I'm just like. That just didn't go well for anybody involved. I just really don't. Not a good idea. So I think it's a really like, queer, non binary person thing where I'm like, no, actually I, I like most of them. I'm in love with at least two of them still. I'm just like, we just can't be together. I just. It doesn't mean anything for my feelings. It just is what it is. I killed. I killed teeth, guys. Sorry, that was too much. [00:08:30] Speaker B: I'm just trying to imagine what your current partner is going to think, listening. [00:08:39] Speaker A: They have. I think the count right now is five other partners other than me. Or it's like four and I'm the fifth. I don't remember exactly what the count is right now, but. But, yeah, no, that is. The beauty of polyamory is like, oh. [00:08:54] Speaker B: I didn't know it was a powerful relationship. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not on it's like, okay, I'm always in polyamorous relationships not because I have more than one partner. I. But I want my partner to have more than one partner as, like, an access tool. You know what I mean? When you're dating somebody with chronic fatigue, it's like, can there just be some. At least one other person maybe to. Just. To. Just to pick up the slack so that I don't feel bad about what I'm not doing? That would be great. So that's really what polyamory functions for me as. It's like a chronic. [00:09:31] Speaker B: Wow. [00:09:32] Speaker A: It's like. It's like just to be like, in case I'm tired, can maybe. Can this be, like, a team effort? Great. Good. Thank you. So I never feel that was part of the reason why I. I was struggling with dating for so long was because with the chronic fatigue and with the chronic pain, I felt like I was less of a partner. You know what I mean? Like, you can't be there in the way that you want to be there. And then. So when I started dating people who wanted to be poly, I was like, yeah, go like, have. Yeah, great. Like, it is actually, like, really, like, knowing that you. Your partner has a support system. Because I actually. One of my flaws in relationships is I really feel that I need to be absolutely perfect in a relationship. I. I have to be like, okay, you can never, ever up. You always have to be there. You have to be everything. You have to be able to, like, wave a wand and make their problems go away. Like, I like. I get very, like, acts of servicey. So to. To deal, you know, to have, you know, other people being like, hey, actually, no, it doesn't actually have to be just you making sure this other person has what they need. That, for me, is actually critically, critically important. I very rarely have more than one partner at one time. I've only done it once and only for a little while. But I. But. But most of my partners have more than one partner besides me. Some of them several, which I. Honestly, as someone with chronic fatigue, I cannot imagine the stamina that it takes to keep more than one relationship rolling at the same time. I don't know. Can we have my partner on here and I'll ask them, like, what that is? [00:11:19] Speaker B: Like, sure. [00:11:21] Speaker A: Genuinely, I have no idea. [00:11:24] Speaker B: Somehow convince your current partner with. To come on this show by all. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I just genuinely am like, my current partner has so much energy. I am baffled by them in, like, the best way possible. They went to two Halloween parties in one night last year. And I was like, I'm sorry, I didn't. That's. That's so many people. Like, I just can't even. You know, that's the level that they're just operating at all the time. So for. For me, poly is really kind of an energy. It's like. It's literally an access tool because it. It tricks my brain into not doing some of the stuff that it does when I get into relationships where I'm like, well, because they chose you, and they literally could have chose anybody else. You need to just be, like, the best person and, like, be getting up at three in the morning to, like, help them with what, Whatever, you know what I mean? Like, I get very like, okay, we have to be like, you know, I have to be very on. And I can never ask for anything because that's just who I am as a person. Like, that. That's just like the internalized ableism and the Capricorn astrology placements and, like, all kinds of. I can never ask for anything. They have to. They have to be the one at all times who needs something. And then I eventually start to feel resentful and we break up. And it's like, well, no, Liv, you made the thing. You made the situation. Nobody said that you had to be the one who gave everything. So poly is actually like, no. There are gonna actually be literally physical humans. [00:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Some of which, you know. [00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Who are gonna keep you from doing the thing that you always do. Yeah. [00:13:18] Speaker B: I mean, one thing I really loved about the last episode is that we always fall into doing bits, creative bits, in the episode that we don't talk about beforehand, but magically appear in every episode. And I love how you picked up and really budged my balls on the episode about wondering if I was gonna ask you out on a episode. I thought I would. [00:14:08] Speaker A: We had the opportunity to do something so funny, honestly. Like, I was like, let's see how far we can take this bit. I don't know. Let's see how far we can go. [00:14:17] Speaker B: And I would, like, mortified for, like, five seconds. And then I'm like, no, this will actually work to the benefit of the series. And particularly what I was talking about earlier. Yeah, it's interesting. Could you know one of my exes extremely well and you've met another one. And I mean, that should really freak me out if I would. That I insecure and nervous, but I'm not. Because people know each other. When you run in the same communities, you're bound to come across people and link them to other people that, you know, it's a small world after all that cheesy indigenousy. But it's very, very true sometimes. [00:15:39] Speaker A: I don't know if you've come across this in like disability activist or you know, disability media professional land, but again, for queer people, that is beyond like I went to a party, I went to a convention, a comic convention with a friend of mine a couple years ago and they ran into a. Every single one of their exes at this comic convention. Like, stop and talked to five people, all of whom they had a relationship with. Like, like it is just. It sounds like a nightmare. Like, it sounds like you could ever. I'm like, oh my God, this is so terrifying. What is happening right now. [00:16:20] Speaker B: No, I mean like I mentioned last time about dating a dad on my show and, and that wasn't forged. It happened very organically and that did for quite a while. And I, I certainly don't begrudge them in any way for how they met me. But in hindsight it left a very bad taste in my mouth that I personally did that. So it's not on them at all. But it's not professional in any sense of the word professional. And this is my job and I lost sight of that. And so it's a great reminder to, for me and for the professionals. It's not that I won't meet anyone outside. Like if you have a actual book launch and I'm in town, I'm totally gonna crouch that shed. But it's like it's. That was a one and done situation that I'm doing. Just never. I'm going to really strive not to do that. But again, you can't really choose how you're going to meet people. And it's apparently. And I found this out from acts that apparently unbeknownst to me that I have this certain reputation that precedes. No one told me that's not. [00:18:59] Speaker A: What's that thing. Other people's opinions of you are none of your business. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Like, yes, yes, exactly. And it's like I just go to work, I show up, I do my job. If people don't want to come on this show, they don't have to. I get the vats majority of who I want on this show. I don't get everyone, but no one ever does. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah, you're gonna strike out. There are going to be people who are just like, that's not for me. Yeah, I really almost. The only reason that I said yes to doing this series specifically was because I knew that you and me and Andrew were gonna make magic. I, I was like, I'm so wildly under qualified to talk about this particular topic. But I'm like, you know what? These are my guys. You know, we have a good thing. They'll make it. We'll make it happen. It'll be okay. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Yeah. No, like when we all have the same disability and we're all in different configurations of sexual attraction, that is why it really appealed to me because I was like, okay, I'm not going to be able to relate or walk in the path or roll in the path that Andrew rolled in. And I'm certainly not going to be able to walk in the same path that Liv walks in because I'm not a woman and I'm not queer. And so it, like if we were all cisgendered straight, I would still do this because I love working with you too. But it would be a, a lot more work for me to get psyched up about it every time we do. Because there's just no diversity. I mean, besides your woman. Non binary woman in two dudes. [00:21:52] Speaker A: But there could always be more diversity. Like there's, there's never a cap on that. I, I know I'm my, my thing that I spend a lot of time doing when I'm like not doing a project creatively is like, okay, what disabled writers or neurodivergent writers have I not heard of yet? Like, what's going on in the landscape? That's like my thing. That's like my thing that gets me out of bed in the morning. So, you know, the reason that I love following Andrew, Andrew keeps me really grounded with the differences between his disability and the way it affects him and the way that mine affects me. Like I, like I. He really keeps me grounded in like stuff that I never have to kind of worry about. And then I'll make a post and I'm just like, oh yeah, that. Ooh. And then like sometimes like something will happen and obviously it's never the same. It's never a one to one. But it's like, oh, well, I don't really need to be freaked out about this because Andrew is going through whatever he's going through and it's very similar to this thing that's happening to me. Especially like, I think Andrew is a little older than me. Don't quote me on that. I forgot how old he said he was. But, but like, especially as my body ages, like every year there's like something that happens with the CP that you're just like, oh, that. Oh, I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah, nobody told me that was going to be a thing. So, you know, I love hanging out with differently disabled people because I'm like, oh, let me keep that, like, in my pocket to remember that, like, someone's dealing with that or like someone's dealing with what this is. Or like, you know, it seems kind of, like, obvious, but it really is. For me, one of the guiding principles of my life is like, the more different types of people that you like, that you are in contact with. Especially because I'm a poet and obviously, yeah, poets are writing about their personal experiences. Right. So you can have like a really, really deep understanding of someone who you kind of don't know because they put something in a poem that was like part of their, like, really deep existence and like, allowed you to read it and you're just like, okay, well, that. Now I know that about that person. [00:24:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:04] Speaker A: So it's so for me, it's really like, it keeps me grounded where when I'm kind of like, okay, everything's chill. I got this because this person is dealing with this other thing that is either like, what I'm going through or like, not what I'm not, like, what I'm going through at all. And like, okay, that's. [00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, personally, my dog Judge died, who I had for nine years. Longest relationship I've ever been in. But it's interesting because she was such a kind, gentle, sensitive soul. And people were always like, you've got this great dog. She must be a dog. Chick mag and all. [00:25:02] Speaker A: What a weird thing to say. That's. That's so bizarre you use another word. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Cause Vincent's a adult pod, right? A pudgy mag. [00:25:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, you wouldn't say that about somebody's toddler? [00:25:19] Speaker B: No, no, I'm Cat. And it's that that always offended me. I will never let people know that. And really, Peppa, my dog didn't care either. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Obviously the dog has no idea, didn't. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Care that people would continue the middle gender. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah, dogs don't know about gender. [00:25:54] Speaker B: No, no dogs. And even if they did, they wouldn't care. It's a non issue for them. But it really upset me that people thought I was using my dog to get dates on to seduce women. Now it's hilarious because I did not do that at all during the entire, almost 10 years we had together. Believe me, her love and devotion was enough. [00:26:50] Speaker A: No, for sure that like, I would rather have this relationship with my dog than. Than any human relationship. The human would have to work really, really hard to. To get to the level of love that I feel for my dog. [00:27:02] Speaker B: But it's like to. To think that anyone, particularly me, that people would assume I would pimp out my dog. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:19] Speaker B: To get laid. It's so outrageous that it's. People say the damned thing. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Like, like sexist thing. It's like, it feels like not something that you'd say to a non man with a dog. Right? Like, like, you know, like the idea that, like, oh, you can't have a bond with this other creature, that you must be using them to have sex with women. It's like, like what? Men are not allowed to do anything. Like, I feel really bad for sister guys. You guys aren't allowed to do anything without. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Continue your train of thought, please. I need reassurance. Live leads validate me. [00:28:16] Speaker A: It's. It's. No, it's really. I, like, I'm joking, but I'm only like, half joking. Like, honestly, like, you, like, really, like, y' all can't like, put a lime in your water or like, wear a pink shirt without some weirdo, like, getting weird about it. It's like, so. It's so weird, like, the idea that, like, I'm gonna go like, way down, like a psychological rabbit hole here. But it, like, it, it has to do with like, this thing of, like, CIS straight dudes can't form bonds if, like, sex is not somehow involved in it. Even with your fucking dog. Like, it's so. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and I got offended for both of us. Even though my dog didn't kill. [00:29:07] Speaker A: He doesn't know one way. [00:29:10] Speaker B: She not he, but there I go again. But I mean, she just wanted me to be happy and to be around me and to be fed and to be walked. That's all she wanted. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:36] Speaker B: And I provided that for her. I mean, for nine years. At no time during that nine years I was like, scheming. Oh, how can I use the fact that I have this very cute and sweet dog to game women, to mad on women? [00:30:09] Speaker A: It's so weird. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Like, I'm making too big a deal of it. But it's also like, psychologically and emotionally, how do people get to that point where they just assume that the only reason I would have a dog, it's not the bond, but to seduce women. I mean, I'm sure there are some CIS gender guides who actually do that. [00:30:56] Speaker A: I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker B: But to, to assume that every guy and people don't know much sexual orientation, and so it's like, what? What? But it's the over generalization about that that was like, no, bj, enjoy each other company and keep each other safe and healthy. It's. And if I tried to use acid seduction tool, no one would stand for that. No. [00:31:48] Speaker A: And I don't really think, particularly if. [00:31:50] Speaker B: The dog found out and actually gave a shit. Big leap. If the dog could actually talk and actually understand the nefarious of my actions, she will bitch me out. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:13] Speaker B: She'd be like, nah, bro, totally, totally bitch me out and no one would blame her. [00:32:25] Speaker A: Yeah, no, she'd be right too. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, but it's. It's emblem. The reason that it's. That you're. That you, as you said, are making a big deal out of it. Right. It's emblematic of like another societal problem. Right. You know what I mean? It's not actually about the action. It's about like for me, one that makes me crazy is like clothes for children that are like, weirdly about sex. Like, you see those toddlers in T shirts that say like lady killer or whatever or like, you know what I mean? I'm like, they're like two or three. Like, what do you do? Like, what are you doing? Like, that's weird. Like, you know, there are. They're like, like everything has to be associated with heterosexual sex or it doesn't like matter. It's. It's just. It's just bizarre. I have a friend. This is related to what you were saying about the dog doesn't care about gender. I have a friend who uses neopronouns for their dog. I think the dog's pronouns that they use are Z and zir. I think, I don't remember exactly, but I think that's such a bold move. Like for me, that's like so radical. And I'm like, why is it the dog doesn't care? Yeah, like the dog, whatever. This dog doesn't care. That person is non binary. They also want their dog to be non binary. Sick. All right, great. I love it. It's the most fun thing. Every time I see that dog pop up on my social media, I'm like, I love it. I love it so much. [00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, but you rub. The dog doesn't care. And even the dog understood the dog wouldn't kill. It's like, dogs are very, very pleasant creatures. They live for the here and now. They're extremely small. Build your T shirt when you really think about it. But yeah, that was always something in my crawl of why would you insult both of us and all bond as anything but the loving, committed bond that it is. And it's like. But again, Pepper didn't care. Pepper still doesn't care. She's having the best life when she eats rocks and chocolate on things she can eat now. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Just get into the chocolate. Yeah, there. Yeah. [00:35:18] Speaker B: I mean, it's like she no longer had hip dysprage. I couldn't fix that. Tried, but. So shout out to Pepper for giving me father for. [00:35:39] Speaker A: Since let me tell you, that dog. That dog passed away. I felt like I had a relationship with your dog and like, I've never met your dog. And I was devastated. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I was so upset about Pepper. So shout out to Pepper. We love her. She's doing great. Yeah. What. What was I. I was gonna say again what I was gonna say. So, like, again, if you walked up to a man with a child, you wouldn't say about the toddler, like, oh, that's a. Oh, that must be really, really good to get chicks. Like, no, that's your. That's your child. Like, yeah, that's, you know, that's your baby. And like, I, you know, people get whatever about like people referring to pets as their. As their children. Like, I understand that's a little cringe, but like, you know, it's like it's the same thing. It's a thing that you've chosen to care for for the rest of its life. That's a big deal. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And it's like, but yeah, that. That goes into dating assumption or attraction assumption. That really doesn't have anything to do with disability. But still p me off as if it had everything to do with disability because again, I got offended for both of us. [00:37:22] Speaker A: Patriarchy hurts everybody. That, that, that. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. But I mean. And will talk about this more on the next episode when Andrew joins us again. But we mention Ableism a lot and we mention internalized Ableism, and that is something we all struggle with, whether we're consciously aware of it or not. But how did that internalize Ableism? Which again, it's very different than Ableism. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:38:18] Speaker B: But how did the internalized Ableism affect our dating lives? Our attractability all does it. And I mean that. That has been on my mind since we last recorded. And so it's been quite a lot. Been through other stuff as well, obviously. But it's also something that psychologically and emotionally never leaves me as trying to unpack. And so it's like previewing that discussion and I mean, it's. What are your thoughts on that? [00:39:27] Speaker A: Oh, boy. I, like, this is. This is just me, like, making it all about me, because that's what I do. I'm a Leo. We do that. I feel like you and I are like the poster children for internalized ableism. And I know that's not true, but I feel like everyone else is doing a better job on their internal. Their internalized ableism than me. And then I read that essay that you sent us about your internalized ableism. I was like, okay, so maybe it's like everybody's doing a better job dealing with it than me and Keith. Because I feel like I should so be, like, over it by now. Like. Like, you know what I mean? Like I said. Yeah, you're almost 40 years old. You. You have a good lay of what. What the world is like as a person. I really feel like I should just be kind of, like, over my bullshit at this point. Yeah, you just never are. [00:40:15] Speaker B: No, you never, never are. I mean, that. I'd say what's extremely important to me called the estrangement factor of mild cerebral palsy. And it all happened because in my early 30s, and I'm now in my early 40s, I decided to finally study my primary disability. And I refer to the John Hopkins. Hopkins Caregivers Guide for people with. For children with Cerebral palsy to be sort of a de facto bible of cerebral palsy, even though it's medicalized of the wazoo it supports to be. It's by John Hopkins. Get over it. [00:41:33] Speaker A: Yeah, really. And also, like, with something that I was thinking of when I. When I looked at the essay, I was thinking about, like, the year in which it was written and the resources that you. You had to work with. Probably at that time, it's like, okay, we're obviously, like, in the early ass days of the Internet. It's not like we. You know, we have what we have now, which I get all my information about my CP from chat rooms. Like, I. I get very little of it from texts of any kind. I'm usually like. I'm usually just like, on a Facebook board being like, all right, so what's going on with this? And then, like, or. Or, like, I have people who I speak to, who I'm like, hey, so this is going on. What are your thoughts about that? You know, I. I very. I. I think that that is a. A moment that you go through right, where you. Where you finally are like, okay, I'm gonna learn about it. Like, there, like, there's A period where you're just like, it. I'm not gonna. I'm. I know for me, when I was young, when I was in my. My teens and twenties, I was like, yeah, I have it. Like, everybody knows I have it. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:35] Speaker A: Like, okay, I. Wait, what? Like the actual, like, I don't know, nerve ending that's affected in my brain or whatever. What. What good does that do me to have that? Doesn't. That's not gonna help me get laid. To like, bring it back to, you know, the point that is not having that information is not going to help me get laid. It's not going to help me, like, deal with people who are being weird in the supermarket or whatever. You know what I mean? So there was a period where I was just really like, I'm not going to deal with it. I don't think that I ever got like, quite as medical about. I did try. I went through a period where I. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Vintage the book on referring to. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. I've never even heard of it. Like, this is the first time hearing. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Of it and I'm like, second edition until there's a third. I just wanted to show it. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah, no, let's. Let's. Yeah, good visual for that. [00:43:28] Speaker B: Go on. [00:43:29] Speaker A: So, like, I. I didn't. I do go through a period where I was trying to read all of my medical records and I found that so upsetting. Like, I, like, I found that. So I was like, I was having like, a really hard emotional response to that. And I was like, okay, I'm not gonna do this because every time I. I do this, I cry literally every time I open up one of these folders. So I. But I did get to a point where I want. Wanted to write about it. That this was. This parallels very closely with my creative life is because for a while I was like, I'm not gonna to write about it because I'm already visibly disabled. I get up on stage, you clock me. I don't need to actually have it be in the poems because it's already like, all right, well, they know, you know, but. But after a while I. And I tell the story all the time. But like, I went to grad school and I got. Was getting my MFA in poetry, and all of the poetry that I was producing just was not alive. Like, if just didn't feel like. Like it. Like it was crackling. And my teacher at that time, Nicole Cooley, gave me the anthology Beauty is a Verb, which I wish I had behind me that I could take it out and show it, but it's a anthology of disability poetics. And it was like. And, like, obviously, you know, like, intellectually, that there have got to be other disabled writers besides you, but until you are actually like, holding. Putting evidence of it in your hands, it doesn't really click that, like, other people are kind of trying to do that and talk about themselves in that way. So I definitely went through a period where I was like, I'm not gonna discuss it because, like, why? Like, like, it's not, you know, I went through a real, like. Like, my CP doesn't define me phase. And now I'm like, at the other end of the spectrum where I'm like, yeah, it does. Like, yes, every. Everything I do is actually influenced by what my body is capable of doing. It's weird to say that it does. Like, it's weird. It's a weird flex to be like, oh, my. I don't let my disability define me. It's like, well, yeah, you do, because you don't know who you'd be if you didn't have it. So, like, what. What are we talking about? Anyway? That was not your question. Your question was how internalized ableism affects specifically my dating life and, like, my romantic life. I think it's really. It. First of all, it's only got to do with me. I definitely have had ableist encounters with people who have wanted to be my partners, but, like, not as nearly as many as, like, you would think. I. I really feel. I feel like I am genuinely ugly, and I'm, like, not saying that to, like, look for a compliment. I genuinely am like, that. There's a of piece period at the end of that sentence. Like, that. That is. That is a thing that I was told out loud by a person, and that was just like, oh, well, that must be true, because why would they say it if it wasn't true? My grandmother said it to me one time, and I was like, oh, well, she has no reason to lie to me. I'm up to. Okay, She's. She would know. So I, like, genuinely, I. That is, like, the thing that I will be working against my. The rest of my life. So that. That informs all of my. My romantic relationships is just like, well, why would they be with me? They could be literally with anybody. Like, what do you. Like, what do you like? I. I said this to somebody recently. I can't have sexual fantasies about my favorite celebrity because I get too hung up on, well, it's me, and he would never have sex with me. So, like, what Even in my own head, I'm like, yeah, that wouldn't happen. That's just out of character. Why would I do that? Like, it's easier to kind of make somebody up and be like, all right, well that makes sense, you know, like, or picture him having sex with his wife because his wife is like a 25 on the scale of 1 to 10 and I'm like a 5. And when the lighting is decent. So even like, you know, even in my own head, I can't like let go enough to see myself as desirable. And I'm. And I'm just like, yeah. And not even like a, like a negative, like, woe is me kind of way, but as like a scientific fact, like, okay, that dog is brown. This person is unattractive. Like, you know what I mean? And so I'm working against that. Obviously. That's, obviously that's the most ableist thing ever. But you know, it's. Once it's in. Yeah, that's okay. That's what we're dealing with right now. And like, you know, it. I'm in a fulfilling relationship. You know, God bless my partner. My partner is very, what's the word? They're very in touch with their sexuality and they have a lot of experience and they love getting to teach me things. And my lack of experience, which I always thought was going to be like a major, like, oh, this is going to be a barrier. This is going to be a reason why nobody ever wants to deal with me. Because even if I'm not hideous, like, I've had so much less experience. Experience with everybody else. Like, no one is gonna want to like, take the time and like figure out like what my muscles are gonna do that day or like whatever. And that's totally, like, that is assuming that you're gonna be dating other able bodied people. You know what I mean? That's totally making that assumption. If you're dating another disabled person, that is a huge part of how you, you gotta roll. You'll check in with each other bodily and be like, okay, what are we doing? So, so he's really incredible at like, he relishes me learning and me exploring and me like getting to know myself in this particular way, which is incredible. But yeah, I would say that the way that it affects me is not so much like people's responses to me. Right. Although I'm not, I'm not free of that. I mean, there have definitely been people who've been dicks about it. I'm not, you know, whatever, but, but it's mostly my response to myself. I have body dysmorphia. I have, you know, I have stuff in my own brain that I'm just like, yeah, this is. This is not even, like, a thing that I should be thinking about as a. As a disabled person, because I obviously am. Insert adjective here. That is the stupidest thing. So that's really, I think, the way that it affects me the most. But, like, also, like, it also got me into a couple of, like, not so good situations because, like, I was so happy to, like, have somebody choose me that I was kind of in situations that were not healthy for me because I was like, well, this is the best you're gonna do, so, like, make it. Make it work. Make it happen. Yeah, because this is. This is as good as it's going to get, so you better, like, make this, you know, as good as you can possibly be. So I think that that would be the way that I would say I'm, like, most affected is like, I genuinely think I am physically an unattractive person. And emotionally, like, I try to compensate. I try to, like, make myself the best version of myself. And that goes back to what we were saying earlier about, like, then I become resentful because I've tried. I've tried to. To, like, be perfect, because obviously, I'm a swamp creature. Why would anybody want to be with me? I have this whole, you know, Phantom of the Opera complex going on. So obviously I have to be perfect. I have to be. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Wow. That's quite a reference, Liv. [00:51:05] Speaker A: That's my favorite thing in the entire world, by the way. I love. I love that story. I did my. My freshman thesis on. On Phantom, but. But yeah, that. I think that would be the way that it affects me the most is like, I. I'm kind of warped about my own potential as a. As a person. And so that just makes me believe that, like, I have to be on at all times and, like, giving everybody what they need all the time, because otherwise, why would they be here? Like, what is the purpose? And so, you know, so that's something that my last few relationships have. Have taught me is like, okay, you do this thing. This is your pattern. Like, make your partners aware. I, I. One of my relationships, I actually. I actually broke it off because I was like, I am becoming resentful. And, like, that has nothing to do with you. That is me doing what I do. And I won't feel that way as much if we are platonic, if we are friends. I won't feel like it has to Be just me saving your life, which nobody said I had to do. [00:52:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's different for me, for me being a guy, but obviously I approach it. I'm very comfortable with my disability and what I do. If I couldn't talk or answer questions about my disability, I would be a pretty shitty advocate and I should shut down these podcasts at once. That's not gonna happen. Sarcasm there. But it's like I'm hardly ever chosen. [00:53:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:53:19] Speaker B: And it's annoying. And that's me being polite. And then you fight against desperation and loneliness, which is more damaging to one's health than change. Smoking 12 packs of cigarettes every day. Something like that. Not a exact. But it's like. And I was talking to a friend last night about this topic and it's like people are so well meaning in trying to cheer you up. Like it will happen when you late expect it. You should go out and do more hobbies. Chronic fatigue. Would like to have a word with you. [00:54:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll go out and play volleyball and we'll just see how it, how it works out. [00:54:42] Speaker B: It's like since I was a late teenager, so 17, 18, 19. People have always said that. And I'm about to be 41 at the end of the month when this is actually recorded. That's a huge time span to hear the exact same things, different variations sometimes and sometimes not. I made the joke with my friend lads. Not that if I had enough nickel for every time I've heard that, I would be richer than Elon Musk. [00:55:45] Speaker A: Yeah, no, for sure. [00:55:46] Speaker B: I wish I was joking. I wish I was being sarcastic when I'd say that, because I really want to be sarcastic. Yeah, that's not me being sarcastic at all. But again, what, what else are people going to say? But the positivity, when you hear it so damn much across over two decades of your life, whether you like it or not, you become resentful and the well meaning words become like being bludgeoned with daggers in your heart. [00:56:50] Speaker A: Something that I always have always thought and have always told people who are not disabled is for me, I have more difficulty with people who are trying to help me than people who hate me. Like. Like I, like. I don't know if everybody feels that way about the prejudice that they experience. I, I really, I don't know. It's so much easier to turn around and go, hey, you. When somebody says something like nasty to you on the, on the highway or whatever, it's the people who are really trying to help that you're just like, I don't have time to like get out my talking points. And, and because it so often happens with strangers, like obviously if it's somebody that you have a bond with of some sort, you can kind of go, all right, let me just like I get it what you, what you're trying to say, but like, nah, not really. If it's like somebody in the grocery store or on public transit, you're like, I don't have time to unpack how the thing that you just said is going to ruin my entire day. Like I, I don't have time for how did you do it? And I, I think especially in the, the realm of, of dating and, and romance and relationships, I just stopped talking about it with able bodied people. I, I was just like, you know what? You're not going to say the right thing. I'm gonna get mad. We're just gonna not do this anymore. We're just gonna, yeah. [00:58:15] Speaker B: And then people are like, well be positive, be more out going. And I'm like, have you met, I. [00:58:26] Speaker A: Was just going to say I'd love to see what that looks like on both of us. Like how could we be do going any harder? How could we anymore? [00:58:35] Speaker B: It, it's like, and I mean think positively. Okay. And what else? And people tent. People don't like punch back. [00:58:59] Speaker A: No. [00:58:59] Speaker B: You know, all like, well you have to stop focusing on it. And I'm like, okay, I've tried that, I've spent years trying that you should emerge things. Okay, well it's like these are not new ideas, new concepts. I, I, I did insomnia thinking about these concepts that I've studied for years. It's like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. [00:59:50] Speaker A: I think something that really helped me and I don't mean this in, in a negative way. I mean it in a completely neutral way. The same way that I say I don't think I am attractive and I mean that in a completely neutral way. I, I, there are a lot of people who we don't hear about for whom romantic relationships just don't happen. [01:00:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:09] Speaker A: For, for no reason. And I'm not talking about like because they're disabled or because whatever. Yeah. It just doesn't occur in their lives for a set of circumstances that are just kind of like whatever. And I, we don't hear about those people and we don't hear about their meaningful lives. You know what I mean? So for me, what finally, what finally cracked me and what finally made me go I am just, Just not gonna worry about this anymore. I'm not gonna make it a part of my thought process. Whether it happens or it doesn't. I. I'm just not going to care. Is like, oh, this is a. A lie. This is to make all other relationships in society be bullshit and not as important. This is a thing that we're being sold to make babies. Like, Like, I genuinely was like, okay, like, I do. I just. This doesn't have to matter as much as it does, as people say it does. And so once I figured that out, it stopped being like a. You are a failed human because you can't get somebody sex with you. [01:01:14] Speaker B: I was like, I mean, it's like, I. I hear that. I. I totally hear that and I totally appreciate that. But it's the don't care. Pretend like you'll find or be fake. And it's like, what do you think I've fought against my entire life? [01:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah. As a person with anxiety. Yes. I absolutely can totally change my thoughts and feelings to just whatever I would like them to be. Yeah. [01:01:59] Speaker B: Like, and so, I mean, every Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. People in relationships hate Valentine's. [01:02:16] Speaker A: That's so interesting. I did not know that. Say more about that. I mean, I'm really interested to hear. [01:02:21] Speaker B: Well, well, I. I've heard that, that, that we did one day a year to celebrate our love and to shove it in our friends and family's faces. Come the on. That. That's just. [01:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:02:49] Speaker B: But it, it's like, it's made up holiday by Hallmark. [01:02:55] Speaker A: I mean, I feel that way about gifts. I actually really am bad at like Christmas and birthday gifts. I'm just like, I saw this thing and thought of you. Here is the thing. I. I really am not good at, like, oh, it's Christmas and I have to buy something for everybody that I know that means something to me. I'm like, you could just like keep your eye peeled and just, you know, make a person's day with that, with that regard. And so that's how I kind of feel about Valentine's Day. Like, if you're not excited to wake up to the person that you're waking up next to every day. [01:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:34] Speaker A: I don't know what to tell you. I'm so, like. [01:03:37] Speaker B: I mean, and another thing, and this is probably longer conversation, but the conversation we just had needs to be longer as well. But in this day and age, this culture, assumptions run wild. [01:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:05] Speaker B: I'm a very nice person. All leads. I try to be like I think. [01:04:14] Speaker A: Most of us are trying not to be dicks. You know what I mean? [01:04:18] Speaker B: It's like, if I do something for someone out of the kindness of my heart and that person happens to be the opposite sex, or if I offered to help someone or loan them something that I have that they want to read or watch, what did that mean? Is she really helping me out of the good the of his heart, or is he trying to seduce me? A black ball or whatever. [01:05:08] Speaker A: But I struggle with this a lot with, with, with CIS men where I am just a person who is friendly. And I've stopped being friendly because I'm just like, this is going to get interpreted not the way that I wanted. Like, I didn't know that I knew how to flirt. I thought I was like, I, I, I had no idea. I was like, I have no, I don't know how to do that. And then at a certain point, my friends were like, no, live. You, like, you, you seem like you're coming on to everybody all of the time. And I'm like, really? That I'm just trying to, like, be engaged and like, nice. [01:05:48] Speaker B: I'm going to put you on the spot here, put you in the hot seat. [01:05:54] Speaker A: Please. [01:05:56] Speaker B: Please do that right now. So we, I can see that. And we have some record of it. Because I'm, I'm like, right, you're like, what? [01:06:17] Speaker A: I have theory that it's got something to do with being a Italian. Keith. I, I have a theory that, oh. [01:06:23] Speaker B: That'S also why we get along so well live. We're both Italian. There you go. [01:06:33] Speaker A: But all the stuff that people are like, oh, you're so flirty. I'm like, I'm just like, I, I don't know. I'm just like, interested in what you're doing. [01:06:42] Speaker B: Like, I, like, I am traumatic. I use my hands a lot. [01:06:48] Speaker A: I can't prove it, but I think that's what it is. I, I can't 1,000%, like, swear on a stack of bibles that that's what it is. When I think about, like, what makes me different from a lot of other people that I know, it's, it's the Italian stuff. It's like the Italian American. It's being loud, it's being dramatic. It's being, you know what? Like, I look and I don't think that that's being different because that's everybody I know. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, my friends is like that. But I, when I think about, like, other people who have been like, oh, my God. And then I. And I, like, really thought about it, and, like, the thing that I want the most in every interaction that I have is I want you to feel like your best version of yourself. After interacting with me. I want you to walk away being like, yeah, I'm amazing. Like, wow, that. That made me feel really good because I have a really, really hard time feeling like that about myself. So I'm just like. I don't really want anybody to ever walk away from an interaction with me feeling shitty because I've had a lot of interactions where I've walked away being like, well, that really sucked. I don't know if I always succeed in that, but that is how I tried to move through the world. Like, it was like you were saying before, you don't know anything about your own reputation. I'm sure there are people who think I'm a jackass. I'm sure, like, whatever. It's part of being in the world. It's fine. But what my. The effort that I make is, like, I want everybody to have the best life that they can possibly have. And people really interpret that as, I like you and I want us to go on dates when really I'm just like. I just want you to be, like, excited and happy. Yeah. [01:08:34] Speaker B: For me, it's the fact that I'm so curious about people, and I'm like, well, I'm more likely to be able to turn off my hormones than I am able to. To turn off my curiosity. [01:09:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:09:01] Speaker B: Because, like, I would not be able to do my job at all if I didn't have the innate curiosity in me. And it's like, yeah, it's just. And, yeah, curiosity killed the cat, but if I live by that mantra of that saying I'm gonna become a total recluse and pale shade of who I actually am. And it. And so I can relate to. [01:09:59] Speaker A: That. [01:10:01] Speaker B: Like, you're interested, I'm interested. [01:10:05] Speaker A: And people very often interpret that as like, there is a sexual attraction or. I. I'm trying to do it for. For, like, a purpose. Like you were saying with. With Pepper. Like, oh, this is a thing that I'm doing to try and, like, get people to do something for me. And it's, like, not really the case. Like, I actually. I actually, really, like, don't want anyone to do anything for me on, like, a pathological level. Like, even when I really need people to do stuff for me, I really don't want them to, you know? But even, you know, like, a lot of my relationships have been people developing crushes on me after we've been friends for a significant amount of time. Because I'm just good at, like, being a hype person and just being like, you know, somebody makes something or does something, and I'm like, oh, my God, let's. Let's talk about that. Or, like, whatever. I also. I love what people love. You tell me the thing that you love, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I really care about that, but please sit and tell me about whatever that thing is for the next two and a half hours. If you let me sit here and talk about Walton Goggins for the next two and a half hours, I would be the happiest person that's ever lived. So I kind of go by that with other people. Do they want to talk about whatever their thing is for. For a long time. [01:11:25] Speaker B: Cool. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Explain it to me. And if I don't. And this is what you were saying about curiosity. If I'm not interested in it, I'm like, okay, convince me to be interested in it. Yeah, me. Pitch me on why I should care about this thing that is very, very important to you and that. That, like, people get really activated when you. When you treat them in that way. And so I think that people. It sounds like a flex, but I think people are attracted to me because I, like, want them to be their best, and I want them to be the person that they wish that they were when they're talking to me. And it's like, yeah, however we're gonna do that, like, that, you know, whatever you, like, you need to be told that you're awesome and to believe it. Cool. I will be that for you. It's fine. And I. I think that, you know, people really respond to that in a romantic. People fall in love with that and to, you know, for. For good or ill, you know, it's. It's led me to some good places, and it's led me to some places where I'm like, oh, I. I maybe should turn this off a little bit and not. Not be talking to this person. But, yeah, I want people to be happy, and I think that that really is. It's an. It's an attractive quality to people that I want them to be excited and. And telling me about what makes them excited and what makes them feel joy, because it sucks out there, man. Have you seen it out there? It's crazy out there. So I just really want you to feel happy for the time that you're speaking to me in any. In any, you know, conversation. And then we can all go back out there where it sucks. [01:13:07] Speaker B: And that's where we'll end it, folks. Vidjet's been Dating with Disabilities pod for of six, but we may have some bonus content edge. Well, I would like to thank my fellow cohorts. Liv Morone will be back next time with our great co host, Andrew Girdler, and we'll see you there. You have been listening to Disability Empowerment Now. I would like to thank my guests, you, Blitzener, and the Disability Empowerment now team that made this episode possible. More information about the podcast can be found at disabilityempowermentnow.com or on social media at disabilityempowermentnow. This podcast is available wherever you Legend Podcast and on the official website. Don't forget to rate, comment and share the podcast. You can watch four episodes on YouTube, but this episode of Disability Empowerment Knowledge Copies copyrighted 2025.