Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to Disability Empowerment now pre season five. I'm your host, Keith Melzhi Dkinsini. Today I'm with Karen J in crisis mobile team specialist negotiator.
Karen, welcome to the show.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Keith. It's wonderful to be here.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Usually I'd start off by how we know each other, but we're going to skip that like a ping pong ball in a pinball machine, if you don't mind.
Just gonna get straight to you and your connection to working with the disability community, because that is something that I found immediately in Grinstein and I knew next to nothing. So how did you get involved in this line of work and what's your connection to the disability community of Arizona?
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Well, I knew when I was 13 that I wanted to work in the mental health field, so I went about doing that by getting my bachelor's degree from the University of Arizona, and then I went pretty much right into the field afterwards. And I have worked in various aspects of the social service and behavioral health communities both in Phoenix and Tucson.
And I did spend almost 20 years working within the foster care system.
But for the last ten and a half years, I've worked on the crisis mobile team, and I have found that this is really a great position for me to be in because, you know, every day is different.
And, you know, when you ask about how I have come to be connected with the disability community, well, it varies from day to day because every call is different. And sometimes we do get calls for people with autism and other, you know, areas within other areas of the mental health and behavioral health spectrum.
So it just varies.
You know, I have actually had a couple of calls recently with people with autistic disorder. And, you know, we go about being of the most help we can be for any given individual that we are called to help.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Well, you've lived quite a provincial life.
That's very incredible.
What type of training do they give you in relating to people with disabilities, particularly those on the autism spectrum?
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Well, last year and more recently, about a month or so ago, we actually redid that original training.
The original training was in person through the Autism Society of Southern Arizona.
And both agencies that provide crisis mobile team services were at that training.
And we were given a big duffel bag of various accoutrements to be able to help people on the autism spectrum, you know, help them feel calmer in the midst of whatever crisis they were they're experiencing.
And we, we did go through a very good training on, you know, what behavioral characteristics to be looking for and how to work the best in, you know, in helping calm people and relate to people with autism. So I thought it was a really helpful training actually, because that definitely has not been a specialty of mine.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: And how long had the crisis mobile team been dealing with people with disabilities, not only on the autism spectrum, but across the board?
Do you find a lot of people with disabilities who require the crisis management mobile team?
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Yes, I would say that we do get a large number of calls for people with, you know, some kind of disability, whether it's an intellectual disability or even a traumatic brain injury, as well as people with autism.
So I have actually been working on the crisis mobile team for 10 and a half years and I was one of the original people hired to work in the Tucson office.
So to answer your question, I have been interacting with people with various disabilities for the ten and a half years now.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: So did you ever think you would be be a part of this team for ten and a half years?
Usually what I asked here is what keeps bringing you back to the job? Because money can only do so much, can only pay the bills so much. And he manages and doesn't sound like a load stretch kind of job.
Not by any measure. And so what brings you back to this very complex but important mental health care field?
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Well, you know, Keith, I think for me the answer is very basic in that, like I said, I felt at the age of 13 that I was meant to be out there helping other people with, you know, various issues. And as it turns out, I'm very good in a crisis. I'm one of those people who may get overwhelmed with, you know, putting their clothes away on, on their bed.
But I am very calm in the midst of a crisis, especially when it's somebody else's crisis.
So it gives me great joy to be able to represent our community because I love Tucson. Like I said, I went to U of A and I love the Wildcats and I'm very happy to be able to represent our agency and be someone who is part of a solution.
And I love the concept of the win, win getting to the win win and a positive outcome.
So I have, you know, gotten really adept, I think I'd like to think, at helping people, you know, resolve the issues that are going on for them. And you know, we are with someone for a pretty short window of time.
So, you know, it comes down to being able to establish rapport pretty quickly with someone and, you know, sometimes are more difficult than others depending on what's actually going on with somebody. Because one of the other very common issues that we get called out to help people with is substance use.
So, you know, when we're dealing with someone who is being affected by whatever substance, it can be a bit more difficult to gain that rapport. So we have to really be able to read the individual situation as it's happening.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: So what were you like as a teenager? Because you keep bringing back up that at age 13 you knew that you wanted to help people.
How did you get such majority in insight at 13 kids? And Joe Elders, every parent of teenagers will be like, they're so immature. My kids, I love them to death, but they're so immature.
What the hell happened to you as a teenager where you have that profound insight that really shaped the rest of your professional career?
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Well, it's funny you should ask that, Keith, because I.
I can tell a very funny story about how I went to visit my aunt and uncle in July of 1976 when I was 13 and it was the bicentennial and I was very much looking forward to being able to go from New Jersey into Manhattan because there was a, you know, a huge celebration for the Fourth of July. Unfortunately, my uncle refused to drive that distance because he thought there'd be a lot of traffic. And I, at that point on July 4, 1976, decided that I wanted to live to be 113 so that I could be around for the tricentennial, which is now 50 years away. So I've made it halfway there to my goal.
And something just kind of clicked at that point.
Not to mention the fact that when I was in eighth grade, I had a huge crush on our school psychologist. And I started to think, I want to do what he's doing because he's really cool.
And I went from wanting to be an orthodontist to going into psychology.
So between the two, you know, having that very long term goal all of a sudden at 13 and then wanting to go into psychology, I think, you know, I was a very weird 13 year old because how many 13 year olds do you know, especially now, like you said? And I think it is a generational kind of thing because the teenagers of my generation are quite different than the teenagers now. Yeah. And I do meet enough teenagers and people in their early 20s and 30s to know that there is a difference there.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: Wow.
So are you native to Arizona or did you move here later in life?
[00:13:21] Speaker B: I actually moved from Brooklyn, New York to Phoenix when I was 10.
So I did kind of mature.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Big move.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: When you were 10 years old?
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. But during the course of time that I spent in Brooklyn I would say that there was a lot more maturing going on there than there would have been if I had been born in Phoenix.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Look Lynn. And really New York as a whole really toughens you up whether you like it or not.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: It's a very grit making state really. Or it will run you over and it won't apologize. In fact the last thing it will ever do it's apologize for running you over into the ground.
But the transportation system.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: So beautiful, unique.
The whole country should be like the subway in the block.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Right? Yeah.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: So we share mental health in a way that I hope you don't mind being talking about.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Oh no, no, not at all.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah I should have checked with you before I rolled the tape.
So did speak.
So we both went to the same mental health treatment center in Wickenburg, Arizona which is about three, three and half hours away from Tucson. Well located Conley.
It's a treatment center called Meadows Behavior Health.
And you went there about 10 years ago?
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I went in 2012 and the program that I did was an outpatient. One of their outpatient workshop programs called Survivors 1.
And it was a five day program where you went to the facility during the day and then you stay in a motel close by at night.
And even those five days I thought were just really transformative.
So you know anybody who's able to stay there for the whole 30 or 45 day program I would think just would have a major, major you know, breakthrough so to speak.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah, and I can speak to that because I did actually stay the full 45.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: Oh yeah, that's wonderful.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Which was transformative.
And survivors one is actually the most intense week.
They.
Who candid admits fail at the meadow. You're not allowed to leave for 45 days. There are no pictures, no video, barely any phones personal but any costs a lot of money. I will not say how much but you can imagine how much of 45 did stay in very parched and bougie rehab center. No the camp it's. It's absolutely incredible. It's like being at a mental health retreat center. In fact that's how I described the whole experience because that would easier an easier pill to swallow than being in rehab being treat.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Yeah
[00:18:45] Speaker A: it's not trying to sugarcoat it. It's more palliable the people to understand and to relate to in some ways.
So you were there in 2012 and you much of ran into the head nuts pure melon. Yeah, I'm Ridiculous digit legends of that because she recently died, lads.
And the.
She didn't found the Meadows, but they adopted her philosophy so much that if you take out of philosophy and if you take out the 12 steps, that plates ceases to exist.
It's just not a functional entity.
And.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: And
[00:20:16] Speaker A: I don't know if they handed out free books when you were there, but they ended up giving everyone a copy of Peer's first book, which is called Facing Codependence, which is a word I had vaguely heard throughout my life.
Not really paid any mind to it.
And I'm gonna say most of us are in some ways, whether we know it or not, codependent.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: And so, yeah, I agree.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Was way ahead of her time with her philosophy, her psychology, her training.
What would she like that you can remember in Imperative?
[00:21:36] Speaker B: She was very approachable. I. I didn't really get to spend too much time with her, but I remember that she came into the.
The common area where we were eating lunch, and she walked in there and we got to talk to her for a few minutes. I think, you know, she was. She's a very warm, friendly person.
She was at that point.
And I began going to CODA meeting shortly after doing Survivors one because, you know, of the impact that her teachings had on me. And I think those are really great groups, actually.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
It took me about a month.
And why I'm dressed the way I am is because this is what I wore for 45 days.
Did get up, and so he took me about a month.
But I went to literally every 12 step group they had, all the way from AA to Gamblers Anonymous.
Now, did I have any AA in it?
Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous?
No, I didn't. But they encouraged you to take what you could from every group that you were allowed to go to. And there were gendered specific groups besides Koda. The one that really spoke to me and a lot of the guides was the SLAW group, which is Sex and Love, Addiction avoidance, again, terminology.
And a group that I had no idea existed. And if someone had pitched me that group, Ads of Creation, I would be like, what the hell are you talking about?
Really?
It like great ideas, good looks, getting anyone to go to any of that.
So you were there five days?
I was there 45 days.
We both went through survivors one.
I got to express my anger and actually be praised for it by not only the trauma specialists there, but also my peers.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Oh, that's great.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: A very cathartic but also weird ADS experience because I had never experienced Expected that. So what survivors one is for those of our listeners and viewers who have no idea.
It's a intensive trauma week which addresses childhood trauma from ages 0 to 17, and it covered everything from sexual abuse to psychological abuse and the terminologies.
What fits under those categories? And there are a lot of categories.
Trusts me, it's very, very eye opening. And then I don't know if they had in 2012, survivors 2, which is basically the adult pargin of trauma between 18 to now. Right. And I really want to do that program because I found survivors one to be such kick in the bones that I desperately needed
[00:27:26] Speaker B: and.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: Was such a cathartic experience that I would like. Give me more, Give me more. I march on, lock all that carried and stored trauma throughout my body and throughout my. My psyche.
When you were there doing survivors one, would pia actually leading survivors, or was she more in the background, observing?
[00:28:13] Speaker B: She was more in the background. Yeah.
So there were various groups going on as, you know, depending on what kind of trauma you were actually there for.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: And yeah, as far as survivors 2 goes, I never got to do that, but it was being offered. It's just that, you know, you have to wait a certain amount of time. I think it's six months in between one and two.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: Six to eight months. Yeah.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And they don't offer too.
Yeah.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: I'm gonna make it either my birthday of Christmas present to myself.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Oh, that's wonderful.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Because I would love to do it at some point.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
So what spun me off into treatment land is. Is that last September, I lost my dalmatian pepper, who I had had for almost a full decade, and I actually watched her drown in my backyard pool.
And that really broke me in more ways than I could have ever prepared for.
No, she was also much more of a salve and a emotional protection mechanism on four legs between me and my parents and dealing with the actual trauma we had been burying in the backyard, sweeping under the proverbial rug.
And so after I went on the spending spree to totally redesign my house because I really needed a total fate left, I. I broke down.
And that is where we came to know each other.
And you had recommended survivors, so you had recommended the Meadows to my family. And I and my psychologists had all known psychiatrists had also recommended the Meadows.
And it's amazing how hitting rock bottom or as close to rock bottom adds one would want to get.
Would want to get to where they know that something radical needs to change in order for them to continue living and doing the work that they love which is what I'm doing right now. I get to interview people for Do I have any training?
No. Do I have an insatiable innate curiosity about other people and why makes them tick and why they do what they do? Yet in fact if I didn't have vets I wouldn't be able to do my work.
So up to Wickenburg I went with a very apprehensive nature like this won't work.
It's going to be like all the other treatment programs.
And treatment programs get a bad rap because they'll most of them adopt a very cookie cutter one size fits all mentality where they try to fit you into their program and how they know how to treat people.
And with people who are neurodivergent, which is the new term for people who think temi or disabled in whatever way they're disabled.
The Meadows approaches everyone where they are
[00:34:02] Speaker B: at
[00:34:05] Speaker A: the very beginning, which is a very seamless process.
I have told several metal patients that I could have hated all of the therapy there.
Spoiler alert. I didn't. But let's see. Hypothetically I did.
The community was almost so simultaneously welcoming that I would have stayed for the community.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: It.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: It's really absurd how many people I got to know on a very intimate level to treatment. Of course I.
I'm a Christian and I, I really take to heart the golden rule. And so even in my child's day, whenever I saw someone new, I made sure that to make them feel as welcome as they possibly could.
Because going into treatment, whether it's your first or fifth or tenth time can be scary as hell. You're in a new environment with new people.
You're there for God knows what. You're there for a good chunk of time.
You need to see at least one or two friendly faces to not skip out, not go MIA and so that would my experience I.
I got to the point where I no longer needed to wear my name lanyard. Everyone knew my name on site.
I got over 50amount of contact info which for a shy guy, very incredible.
But what turn it back to you. Do you see Craig's management ads?
Not necessarily your dream job.
I really don't know anyone who would describe it as their dream job. But you seem pretty comfortable in what you do. Do you see yourself continuing with the work you're doing or would you like to go to something else?
[00:37:49] Speaker B: I consider this job my calling as it goes.
Like I said, I spent a lot of time in the child welfare field doing case management kind of work. But I really do feel that the crisis environment is a better fit given my, my skills and I'm an extrovert and I, I am able to establish rapport with people very, very quickly after I meet them. And I do feel like I'm able to, you know, bring about a sense of confidence within them that they are with someone who is going to be an advocate for them in the time that we are together.
And I take that very seriously.
So, I mean, unfortunately, I don't run into too many people who would have the means to go to the Meadows. I wish everybody could go there because I think it, I mean, can you imagine, Keith, if, if everybody who really wanted to go there was able to, I mean, it would, it would really, you know, be wonderful.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it would.
I want to ask you something because you've mentioned it several times.
It's building rapport rapidly in a very short period of time.
And you're professional, but you also have to get personal and walk that line.
How does one train for that and navigate that in varied, stressful, sometimes life altering or, God forbid, life threatening or experiences and situations? How are you able to rapidly build rapport to where people can trust you when they're in manic or depressive or whatever state of mind they're in your brand new person, they don't know. How do you make the connection?
[00:40:57] Speaker B: Well, I'm a Gemini, so I am able to basically start a conversation with pretty much anyone anyway.
And you know, it's just like a gift from the universe basically to be able to do that. Because I mean, there are people who would say I could never do that, you know, that that wouldn't be something I'd feel comfortable with and, you know, I'd rather just sit behind a desk and look at a computer all day. But to be able to go out there and approach somebody with a sense of curiosity as opposed to judgment is the first step.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Speaker B: So in working with people from all walks of life and very varied histories of what brought them to that point that I'm seeing them, there has to be an open mindedness, you know, a sense of what I call or consider unconditional positive regard in that and going to, you know, accept what I'm hearing and go from there and be of help, not a hindrance.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
Wow.
So what do you think that the teenager in you was thinking of her life and having and employing that curiosity to other people in crisis in one of, if not there was moment or moments, do you think the 13 year old could have imagined that type of walk or do you think that foster carriage what the teenager in you was thinking about or how, how did, how did one young girl.
How would she have imagined or comprehended the job of the jobs? Because you've had several and all of them haven't been easy jobs. I don't know. If you know that, how do you think she would react to what she eventually became?
[00:44:15] Speaker B: Well, I had a very close friend in, in grade school and through high school whose parents both had alcohol use disorder.
And I, you know, very clearly remember being at her house in eighth grade and really wanting to be a sounding board for her and putting myself in the role of kind of like a crisis counselor.
So even at that point in time, I felt very comfortable with being needed, basically, you know, if I could be there to listen to her and get her through, you know, that given point in time where her parents were sitting in the living room, both very intoxicated, and we didn't know what was going to happen by the end of the evening if I slept over, you know, it was a scary kind of situation.
So I really took on the role of wanting to have others feel comfortable.
And you know what? I think, you know, that that was kind of the start of my codependence, my role as a codependent.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
Could you talk more about that and what you discovered over the years about codependency as it relates to your life and the job that you do?
[00:46:05] Speaker B: Right. Well, so, you know, the, the, the, the drawback to being of a codependent kind of have having that mentality in, you know, wanting to help others, wanting other people to be happy and doing what you can for them.
It, it really slowly depletes your own energy and it, it can lead to burnout. And that is what I was able to discover and work on over the years, especially with having gone to Survivors one and going to CODA groups in that, you know, it's the old saying, you know, you have to use the oxygen yourself before being able to help other people.
And so now into my 60s, I am much better at self care, self acceptance, you know, being kind to myself as I would be to other people.
And that has really transformed who I am and my ability to be thinking that I can, you know, keep doing this job for quite a while longer because I have the skills now to be able to, you know, replenish, replenish mentally replenish physically.
In the course of the last four years, I've become a runner and I am part of this wonderful running community here in Tucson.
And that has really been very energizing as well.
So I, I know what to do now to be taking care of myself and that's really important for, for people in the helping field.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: So I don't know who will want to follow you in your steps. And it's not that the work you do is extremely valuable, just the opposite, it's completely valuable. But in case there is a listener or two that is watching this and really wants to be involved in that field of mental and behavioral health, what would be some pointers, some action steps you would provide to them as they begin their journey on becoming part of the crisis management mobile team?
[00:49:20] Speaker B: Well, for anybody who is interested in being part of the crisis mobile team, well, one of the requirements is some kind of previous experience working in the mental health field.
A college degree isn't even required, just, you know, experience that a lot of people have been able to get either working in a group home or, you know, at various agencies being either a case manager or a peer support specialist. A lot of people do start out as a peer support specialist because a lot of people, as you know, who go into the mental and behavioral health field have had previous experience either with some kind of mental health diagnosis or, or substance use or they've had, you know, very personal experience with a family member who has experienced some, some aspect of an issue.
And there's also a lot of volunteer opportunities as well.
NAMI is a really great organization here and, and then, you know, doing the, the groups, there's a lot of support groups as well that you know, are really welcoming as you know, and enlightening and there's a lot of support in our community.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: And so once watching it's a two parter, I'm.
I hope, and I like to think that both people with disabilities and those who haven't discovered or embrace their own disabilities listen and watch this show.
I tried to make it as accessible as I can and I've always tried to do that from the Fed's episode. We've talked about a lot of different topics over this episode. So as my guess, and I'm under no illusion that either group or groups within said group groups take away the same things that other people take away from these episodes.
So as my guests, what do you hope that people with disabilities take away from the zebisode and what do you hope that those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities take away from this episode?
[00:52:52] Speaker B: I would like people in the community who have already been diagnosed and you know, maybe feeling that you know, there, there's not support out there. I would like them to know that there actually is a lot of support out there with various agencies. And you know, at any given time, 24 hours a day, the crisis mobile teams are available.
And I, I'm going to say that number, it's a local 520-number, 520-622 6000.
And when somebody calls that number, they will be connected with the Solari dispatch line, the crisis line, and given the information that, you know, they talk about with the crisis specialist who answers the phone, a crisis team will be dispatched out to them.
And, you know, a, a lot of community resources will be available at that time.
So that's really important to know.
And you know, whatever help somebody feels they need in either getting to a diagnosis or embracing the one that they have already been given, there is a, a high level of acceptance and kindness and support within the mental health community here. There's a lot of agencies out there that, you know, either specialize in working with people with disabilities of various foreign kinds, and there's just a lot of ongoing information and support out there.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities would.
No, I'll understand about the value of the walk that the crisis mobile team does in conjunction with people who have emotional or mental health.
[00:55:45] Speaker B: Well, Keith, I think a really important takeaway here is for people to believe that they deserve the help in the first place because somebody has to believe that they deserve the compassion and the positive regard that they will receive in asking for help.
But if they don't feel that they deserve it, then they're not going to ask for it in the first place.
So the, the kindness that's afforded to others needs to be afforded to oneself in order for the, you know, the, the help to be requested.
And you know, that. I mean, I'm, I'm simplifying it, I think, because with a lot of people, you know, that that would take some work, right?
[00:56:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: But in making that first call, that's, you know, a really important part of the healing process.
[00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah, the healing journey. Well, Carrie, I want to thank you for your lives work and for the time and dedication you've shared with the audience and with the community at large and keep up the amazing work that you do because you certainly changed my life when I needed it the most. And so thank you for building authentic rapid rapport when it was required the most.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Well, Keith, you're so welcome and it has been such a pleasure to, you know, be a part of this program and I look forward to, you know, your continued success.
Thank you hearing about it.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: Thank you very much my friend.
Take care.
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