[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to disability empowerment. Now, season four. I'm your host, kid mephidicincini. Today I'm talking to my dear, dear friend, CQ. CQ, welcome to the show.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Hey, Keith. It's so nice to be here. I'm CQ, or C Quintana, and I am a writer. I write kind of everything. I write plays. I write for tv. I am attempting to publish a novel.
You know how it goes. You know how it goes.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Once. Jump right in. We haven't seen each other in 15 long years. Something like that.
When was zero nine? I don't even remember.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Wow. Isn't that crazy? That's 15 years ago, man.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: It's like, wow. I'm usually terrible with that, but, yeah. Uh, yeah. We met at the.
What was then known as the College of Santa Fe. And I love how at the end of your resume you put that. You're a graduate.
Would you mind telling us what you'd say?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: I think I say something like, something about the college. I'm a graduate of the now deceased college of Santa Fe. Rest in peace.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: I think that. Yes.
Yeah. The now deceit college.
And I just burst out laughing for five minutes straight.
But. So, yeah.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: It'S funny that you say that because I remember I was talking to my wife where I put that in my bio, and my wife said something like, you shouldn't say that. Like, it's not really like a person. And I was like. But it kind of is.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: I mean, it feels like deceased is the right word. It's funny, like, when I think of all the different, like, defunct, you know, enacted. Like, it's not like it's the word. Deceased feels like the right word when it comes to the College of Santa Fe, which is.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it transformed into something different that unfortunately didn't. Unfortunately, depending however you look at it, didn't last long at all.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: All.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: And it was a big blow to everyone who thought to the nail to try and save that institution.
It's all coming back to me, which is the name of.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Way to go. Wow, that was a good segue.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I try my best.
And so it's all coming back to me. The episode you wrote on the new Alfred Black spin off echoes before we get into the actual episode. And the very clever song that's obvious.
How did this amazing opportunity find you?
[00:04:21] Speaker B: You know, that's a long story, honestly. But I will say that, you know, I've been writing in television.
I first, you know, I really. My background is largely as a playwright, and so I came to television writing as a playwright, as a lot of, you know, television writers have kind of, in this era of tv, and I wrote, you know, kind of in a moment of a play of mine getting some attention, I sort of was starting to kind of make the crossover from playwriting into the possibility of television writing. And I signed with a manager, and there was a little bit because of my theatrical, my playwriting agent was at an agency that also had television and film. I was sort of talking to a tv film person about that possibility as well. And at that time, I developed a pilot that is a very speculative kind of concept because I'm very into that. I've always, you know, I love, like, you know, like so many of us, I kind of grew up with the New Year's marathons of the Twilight zone, and that sort of, I often, in my early, in my early meetings, I used to say, and it's still kind of true. I mean, I used to say that my aesthetic is kind of Mel Brooks meets the Twilight zone.
So, yeah, so I kind of had that sample. And it's interesting. The first time I, when I staffed initially, I staffed on the show called the Baker and the beauty, which was a rom.com on ABC or it was an hour long series, and that I actually staffed, it was a play of mine that got me onto that show. And, you know, like, I think what, you know, it's come out a lot during sort of the conversation that's come out of the strike, which is that, you know, I was not a television writer in the kind of, quote, days of yore. I really, you know, I've become a television writer since 2019. And so in my experience of television writing, it's never been something that's been certain. It's always, to me, kind of felt like another one of my freelance gigs, a really great one, like a really good one that can really keep me going for a while and is, like, super helpful but is never guaranteed. So when I had my first job, you know, it was kind of interesting because I remember I was, you know, my wife and I had been, I moved out to LA for Baker and the beauty, and then basically my wife and I were doing long distance during that time. I came back, I had some playwriting commitments. And I remember I was up for a possible job, but it was going to mean I was going to have to move to Chicago for a period. And because I had made these playwriting commitments, I was like, you know what? I've said, I'm going to stay in New York so I'm going to do this. And the funny thing is, then the pandemic happened, and I probably could have just done it virtually. But anyway, long story short, it took a while for me to staff again after that initial time, and it's so different for everyone. I know people who have staffed for the first time, and it's been consistent. And then I've known people who staffed once and it's taken them forever to staff again. There are, of course, as you know, there are people who start as writers assistants, and it takes them upwards ten years or more to even get, you know, they might be getting a writing bride credit, but to actually get on staff is a whole nother story. And they're like amazing writers that are writers assistants out there that are really, like. I really could talk about that for a long time.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: So long story short, but I guess I made it long is I, you know, with the pandemic, you know, I was lucky that I actually had interestingly, like, a bunch of theater related things. I was working on this audible commission, which was wonderful, and would, and I was working on a few other things that were keeping me going. And I was actually working on a project called B Scroll at the Kennedy center. And I remember so specifically, it was like, it's kind of funny how, like, when it rains, it pours. I was sort of, like, waiting for all these things to happen, and I suddenly, out of nowhere got this interview for Orphan black echoes. And, I mean, granted, my script was the perfect sample. That pilot that I was telling you was sort of the perfect sample for it, but it really did kind of come out of nowhere. And it was funny because I was in the middle of rehearsals for this project, and I remember, like, doing the interview, the showrunner interview, both the showrunner and the, you know, the producer, the interview with the producer and everything, because usually that's kind of how it works. They have you, like, sort of meet with a producer beforehand if you haven't been through it before.
So, yeah, so it all kind of happened. And it was with every show that I've worked on, actually, I've been hired out of the blue, so to speak, in the sense that I haven't known anyone else on staff. So, you know, Anna was taking, that was my showrunner, Anna Fishko really was taking a chance on me. And I'm so grateful that she did because I have loved, I loved working on this show so much. It was such a special experience. Anna is an incredible leader, both visionary in terms of, as an artist, but also as, you know, a manager, which is, I think, what makes the job of showrunner one of the hardest jobs I've ever seen. But you really have to have both heads. You have to be an incredible creative person, and also you have to be somebody who can really manage and juggle a lot of people in a lot of situations. And I. So it was an incredible learning experience. And, you know, my first experience being on set as a writer.
Yeah. So that's a long answer.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Did you get to meet any of the cats?
[00:10:11] Speaker B: I did. So I was on set for the show.
The season was filmed in what is called blocks. So basically we did two episode blocks. So it was like two episodes at a time.
And then it was like shared team in terms of the DP and the director, et cetera. So I actually got to go out and I went a little bit early. So they were still filming episode between the pilot and episode two just to get a sense of it. And then my episode, which was episode four, so they shot episode three and four at the same time. So I actually had quite a bit of interaction with the cast that were all involved with, you know, basically the whole primary cast was involved in my episode, including Kristen Ritter, Amanda fix, you know, Keely Hawes.
Really?
Yeah. Amanda is just so incredible, as you can see on the show. I think she's a very career ahead of her.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, I binge watched the series in two chunks. I went from one to four, really one to five, and then full wardrobe episode, I rewatched four to ten.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Night. Uh, well, were you a fan of the original show? Did you know anything about it?
[00:11:51] Speaker B: So it's so funny because I had, for years, people had been like, you should check out orphan black. Like, I think you'd really like it. Like, so many people had, like, said that to me. And it was so funny because I never quite, I think because of the title too, because it's not, like, so clear necessarily, you know?
[00:12:09] Speaker A: No, no, right.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: So I never quite understood, like, I never knew, like, people. I. People had said that to me, but I never quite knew, actually, exactly what it was. So to be perfectly honest, I walked into it, like, not only having really, that reference point, you know, and then started, once I knew that I had the interview, I sort of started digging into it and watching, you know, began to watch the first season from that point. But one of the cool things about working on it, too was like, Anna sort of had, like, both, really, both parties, you know, she wanted it to be. Obviously, there were there are the connections to the original series, but she also wanted it to feel like it could stand alone and that you could enter it even if you hadn't had, you know, even if you hadn't been watching or faithful to the original series. And so hopefully I think that's a real, it was a real challenge obviously of the series, but I think the idea was it was like there's something for everyone. There's something for the, the orphan black diehards and there's something for folks who are completely new to it.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah, one of my best friends uh, got me into the original series and like you, I knew nothing to make of that name. It's like even being a Sci-Fi fan, it's like.
But once you see the original episode and really get drawn in by that third scene where.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Right. Oh yeah, it's such a great, the pilot is such a good pole. Yeah, it's a really strong pilot.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Knocked and shocked everyone into watching the next, so.
And I loved the nude series and the quids and turns it took.
Hardly.
No, I shouldn't spoil it. One thing that I wanted to actually, besides when I'll read in the game green ledge for season two because there's not really a ending at all. I mean it should.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: It'S a real cliffhanger for sure.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Wage season one of the original show, it's like they had, I'm sure ideas to wrap it up as a standalone limited series. They chose not to do that. And then it's what I found really odd and fascinating is that the entire season premiered a year earlier in Australia.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: So what was that like, keeping the series under wraps?
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Like when we were in school together, I don't think VPN's were really a thing or judge became one and so agrider. How do you lead shit. And then he bid Hodge, Hodge over here.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Well, it was definitely a bummer in the sense that like, or it was difficult. Not bummer is another word, but like difficult in the sense of we found out because initially the series was going to come out in June of last year and then in the states, but then when everything happened with the strike.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Oh yes.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: That was basically when they decided to hold because I believe, and I could be wrong, so don't, you know, hold me to this, but I believe that like Anna was done with posts and everything by, you know, by the late spring and then, and then they were planning on airing it. But what I learned is that it was a kind of interesting situation where so one of the so with boat rock rocker is the company, this canadian company that was involved, obviously, as one of the. As a producer on the project. You know, there was a studio on it. So it was, you know, AMC was a network, and boat rocker the studio. And as far as I understand, boat rocker had. Has all of the foreign rights. So they basically, I don't know exactly, like, how they decided, but they basically ended up releasing, as, you know.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: In Australia, in Asia, in Europe, all basically last year. So by, like, December, January, it had been released, like, throughout the world, and then we knew that it was going to be. I forget when, because Anna was really great and she sort of, like, kept us all in the loop, and I. We knew as of. Because I know it was like when I was working on this show called Alert, and it was when I was working on alert, so I remember her calling and telling me that they were going to hold, you know, until June. They had made that decision.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: And, you know, for better or worse. I don't know. Like, obviously, I'm sure they had their reasons for making that decision, but I do think it was, like, complicated in the sense that I think there were a lot of people who probably ended up, you know, you know, ripping it and, you know, that's just a reality.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: I didn't. I originally got back on AMC plugs.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: All right.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Good.
And I didn't check the episode count, so I thought it was a year long series.
So I signed up for an annual. Luckily, there are leads, two dozen other series on that I'm interested in.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: I really recommend started watching interview with a vampire. It's really great. The new. Yeah, it's really great.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: I wanted to see that. I appreciated the exclusive looks in the episodes and the episodes and how they were targeted to a certain topic. I really appreciated that. And I wish more shows did that. I wish the original series did that. But the original did a comic book, several soundtracks, something.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And they have, like, a podcast.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Audible series, multiple seasons. So. Of the original cats.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: About complicated getting any cats back.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: Seasons of a judge, a audio show.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah, no, it's really interesting, and I think that was a really interesting thing to contend with in terms of also part of the conversation, which was like, how. And that was like, that would come up in the room, which was like, how much of what exists are we going to, you know, like. Like, do we go? Because there was a lot of stuff that, like, sort of had happened in the podcast, and we had a woman in our room who, she was Anna's assistant, Allie Weinstein. And she's like a die hard orphan black fan. And she. Yeah, which was great because she really had all the references. And she, like, kind of also did the deep dive with even the podcast series and everything. And there were lots of things where it was like, okay. I mean, that was, I know, part of the decision in terms of. Because within the podcast, Felix married Colin, and there's, like, all that info. So we kind of decided that, like, in this future version, you know, Colin had passed away, but that they had been married for all these years, et cetera, because, you know, it sort of served the storyline. Spoiler alert. But obviously served the storyline. Um, but, yeah, so things like that. Yeah.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: One thing I would really, really curious about, and I loved how you all hold it off, but in the first, in watching the feds episode, I was like, how the. Are they gonna pull off the mad ship time jump? I mean, how. Why?
Yeah, later you find out why. And after your episode, episode five, you find out.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: Find out the full story.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Big revelation. And so it's explained, but going into it adds a fan, but also being conscious about it, that times jump is very jarring. What was it like in the writers room coming up? I'm coming in to that decision because you could have done one. Well, mentioned the pod cats, and so you also had to contend with that. But why not ten years or 20 years after?
I mean, find out later about the audience.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Don't you know that I doesn't understand.
You know, that's definitely. It's definitely a question, like a more direct question for obviously for Anna, because she was living with it for so long and she wrote the pilot. Anna Fishko, our showrunner, obviously wrote the pilot, and she had been developing it for a while. So when I actually entered the room, it started as what, you know, we kind of these days, everyone calls mini rooms. So it was like, basically we had like a ten week order, and it was like, the idea was, is the series actually going to get greenlit? And we'll start having discussions about the episodes, and if it gets greenlit, then we'll continue and have, like, a full room was basically.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: When I entered the scene, it was already, you know, Anna had been working on this pilot already, at least a couple of years, I think, in development with AMC. At least a couple of.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: No, Anna. I've never heard of her. I don't know her personally. But watching her interviews in the exclusive looks, I can already tell. Yep. She walk cards. She walked up behind.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, she.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: I mean, you. You could see from how she talked.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: The birds, sentences that came out of her mouth.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Vincig is a very competent, confident showrunner.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Billy loved that series and what she bring to the table.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'll tell, and I'll tell you one thing I do know about that is that I think that with the time jump, that was something that she really fought for, because I know for, you know, a bit of a spoiler alert, but I don't think a spoiler alert was just that it was really important to her for us to, like, understand that, which I think becomes, you know, really important as the series goes on is this idea of family for Lucy. Right.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: And to be able to actually really believe that she had created a life, you know, outside. And honestly, we also know, as the series goes on, again, this is not really a big spoiler, but we, you know, you start to learn that she also had this brief time right in the city when she was kind of a mess and she was figuring herself out before she sort of went off the grid and kind of landed in the situation that she is when we find her in the pilot. So I think it was just trying to, I think, be, like, not have too much time, but also be believable that she's actually has fabricated, you know, has this not fabricated. Has actually forged a very real connection between these people and that we're actually buying that. And it doesn't feel like it's like, oh, she's only known these guys for a few months. Like, why would she. Why is it a big deal? You know? I mean.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: It might be interesting cause you mentioned before wondering if it's gonna get green led and then continuing on. But, of course, you didn't write the finale, which I don't consider a finale at all, how it all ends, which.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Is how tv is, right?
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Ever. I mean.
[00:27:10] Speaker B: That'S tv, right? That's how it all tv.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: But going into the writers room, what would you like to. Or even observing it from outside the writer's room, because every show, unless they're self contained, you would imagine every show wants to continue. And I'm.
I'm willing to bethe anything that Anna has several, several seasons planned.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: But you only agree that for ten episodes, ten weeks. But then it did hit, then you had to plan. And so because it's one thing if Anna looks like, okay, we have basically 10 hours to tell this spin off story, and we have to wrap it up in those 10 hours.
And again, she could have pulled that off if she wanted to. I mean, if anyone could, it would be her, but. And so what is it like preparing for the next season before you know that there is going to. To be a next season?
[00:29:09] Speaker B: I mean, I think with the experience that I've had working on, I've worked on two different shows that were in their initial, in their first season when I worked on them, and including this one. And it's a really interesting thing because one, like, yes, like, obviously having something that's a limited series, which I haven't worked on a limited series before, but, like, where, you know, it's like, okay, this is an ending, or you think that's an ending? Yeah, I still think that, like, working on, you know, any television series because of the nature of the form, there is something really fascinating where it's like you're trying to both create a satisfying enough ending where it feels like you've told, you know, a whole story in ten episodes or however many episodes it is. But then also, you do want to have a satisfying enough and click cliffhanger so that if you have the opportunity to do a second season, you have the Runway for what the second season would look like or the next. If it's not second, it's the next, you know, and so I do think it's a really, really interesting thing. And obviously, I think something that Anna has thought really deeply about, but I think also something that in the room, I co wrote, you know, the first version, but I co wrote episode 109 with Amy Lees Johnson, or, you know, at least the first version of the first versions of it.
And it was really interesting, you know, as you're trying to, you know, as everything is starting to come together, it's like, what are you revealing? What are the things that are giving us the possible, you know, breadcrumbs that could go on into the next season and what will that look like?
And, I mean, I do think that that's something.
One thing that's really interesting, too, I think, about I getting to work on the first season of a show is that the show is still figuring out what it is.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: Yes. You know, exactly. And it has that vibe much like the flagship had in its first season.
Woods. I mean, you would back Felix. You would have back one of the wives, the wife of one of the characters.
Was there any talk that you can reveal of bringing back Tatiana, the original actress? Because something that did the ring shades, that series from the flagship is Tatiana played all of the clowns and, well, I much convinced him.
I hope she doesn't take things the wrong way.
I thought Amanda was a younger version of Christian, which, if that's what you're going for, they pulled it off very flawlessly, like the first three episodes before I really found out that Amanda Vicks is real person.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: Oh, that's amazing.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: And so. But that's a big, big change from the flagship. And you introduce more clones played by different people.
What would that like? Because that was such a critical, fascinating gob smacking.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: Like, if I had jagged. Tatiana, one question.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I think a lot of people. I mean, I think that's the reason. I mean, really. I think at the end of the day, what? I mean, there are so many obviously, things about it, but I think that the. The thing that people came back to with orphan black with the original series was Tatiana Maslany's performance and.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: And, you know, it's what everybody talks about.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: Chemistry with Felix. I mean.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Well, it was so ahead of. I mean, it was so ahead of its time. I mean, the show was really. It's. You know, it's kind of. It's sad because it's not like it was that long ago, but the show was ahead of its time in terms of queer representation, like, in a huge way. And so I think that a huge fan base was sort of the queer community because of, obviously, Cassima and, you know, that relationship, and then also obviously, Felix. So I think that was huge. I mean, as far as I know, like, I mean, we talked about it definitely in the room, and I think it was always, like, the possibility of whether to bring. We could bring Tatiana back or, like, you know, if we could bring her back in the future. So it definitely wasn't something that anybody was opposed to, you know, like I said, I mean, I think there's a very clear tie, you know, as you know, fairly quickly, you know, between the first, you know, what's happening in the original series versus this series. But it does create, like, a very different thing. And I really admire Anna, I mean, obviously, on so many levels.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: But, I mean, we could spend 5 hours, which is the joke of the whole season. I'm doing. I'm trying dance related to find a gad. Any gads who will do a five hour episode now? Do I really want a five hour episode? Absolutely not. But it's a great punchline, and the punch line for this episode, which isn't a punchline at all, you will probably wholeheartedly agree with me that we could spend 5 hours fawning over the creative genius of the showrunner.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, I think the reason too, though, is that it's like, we've talked about it. It's just, it's a really.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: Anna.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah, Anna knows. I think Anna knows. I feel better. But I do think what I've learned in my now, you know, still limited time being in the television world, what, you know, six, six years, which is crazy. I can't believe it's, like, going to be, like, six years that I've been working in television, but I, which is still nothing, you know, I'm still a baby in the television world, but I feel like it's, I just, like, just has given me such deep respect for that job. And, I mean, also the number two, I think I've been in circumstances working in television where, like, the EP, I mean, is such an important job. Like having that number two person who can really, like, step up, you know, step up the plate to the plate and really take things over. And I've really experienced, I've had experience and experience on a show where really the EP was sort of running things, and it was, it was really, you know, quite an learning. I mean, every, that's the thing. That's the thing about television. It's just like theater that way, too. You know, it's like every production is unique. And I think that, you know, I haven't had, you know, it was interesting working on alert because that was the first, my first time working on a show that had already had a season, even though it was kind of creating a new season because it was a brand new team, but it was interesting because it's like, it's still like every production is. There's a new set of people, a new set of challenges. And I do wonder, you know, because I haven't had the experience yet of working on a show that has, like, multiple seasons where I wonder, you know, does it feel that way still on a show like that? And I imagine that there's an extent that it feels like a continuation, but also probably feels really new in a lot of ways because most shows don't have the same teams, not the same exact team from season to season, so.
[00:38:06] Speaker A: No, they don't. But, I mean, going back, the cats and crew of Alton Black echoed.
Seems very close, very family oriented, like bringing back the college of Santa Fe. It was a very small college. We all knew each other. There was really no way to escape, no one to really, uh, not meet everyone.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: Throughout the course of the year or two or three, however long you were there, and, I mean, everyone seemed like they had such a freaking blood on this show that I I don't think it's gonna be hard to get anyone or everyone to come back that you need to on this show because you. You have great tats and you leave it wide open in a sense of what comes next.
Going back to your episode, the title, it's all coming back. And then the very appropriate song that you use.
Episode, which came first because, I mean, when I saw the title of that episode, unlike, oh, my friend wrote this, ooh, I wonder if that song, and we don't even have to mention that song's name. All the audits who. I'm tickled Pink as a music fan that that audits got sprinkled in so much throughout that, uh, throughout the season. But as a creative writer, were you giving direction on vintage the hook, or did you dream it up and.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: All right, well, you know, I mean, we're all together break. You know, we're breaking the episode before you go, before we go off. I mean, you know, it's like, basically usually of somebody who's kind of, like, the person who's writing the episode is usually kind of leading the breaking process, but we're all breaking them together. And so, you know, I knew basically, like, what the episode was going to be. And one of the things that was kind of a fun. It was a really fun sort of mandate.
Mandate, I say, you know, it was sort of a mandate from Anna.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: Wouldn't it be a woman date?
[00:41:37] Speaker B: A woman date? Yeah, a woman. One of the really interesting woman dates. I'll say one of the interesting mandates of the show was Anna really wanted us to, like, have a really good time with the goons and just kind of, like, make them a little ridiculous.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Everyone pulled that off and to get some Reed. Reed diamond.
[00:42:01] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Reed diamond is a darling. He is such a, like, talk about the most game actor. I mean, one of the most game actors I've ever met. Like, he shows up to set and he is ready, and he is just so delightful. He's got so much energy and so much enthusiasm, and he just, like, is a wonderful guy. Wonderful, wonderful guy.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: He played goons before I first saw him in the second season of Agent of Chilled, and that was my introduction. I also liked.
Well, continue what you would say.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: I was just going to say that. So basically, she was kind of, like, have fun with it. And I had been on, you know, I'd worked on shows before. I'd worked on a show before where like, I sort of had the sense that, you know, the showrunner and this happens a lot for, like, you know, story, you know, when you're like a staff writer, it's your first episode. So that, you know, my last show before that, I kind of knew that I was going to have a page one rewrite and that, like, I was going to write it and then it was probably just going to get totally rewritten. So to be perfectly honest, I went into writing when I started on orphan and I was, as a story editor, I was like, I'm just going to write, like, whatever, and then, like, just know that it's probably going to all get rewritten. Yeah, but the thing, I just, I didn't know Anna at that point. I didn't know how much she was actually going to let me have a bit of ownership of the episode, which was really amazing.
And so I am a huge Celine Dion fan if, for anyone who knows me. Knows what? How much I love that song. And so I, one of my favorite memories of all time is, like, being in the car with, like, two, like, wonderfully, like, very straight men and, like, blasting that song. And I just love that song so much. I mean, it's just like, it just can't help but, like, rock out to it. And so I just wrote the scene that was them because I knew, you know, they had to be on the trail to get, you know, you know, obviously this is not giving anything away, but there's basically something that happens in the goons to go after, you know. Right. Or not save the day, but stop.
And so I just, like, loved the idea of them, like, blasting this song as they were, like, racing down the interstate.
And it just, honestly, also, the song is completely, like, thematically, you know, goes with what's happening in episode. And the title is very apt for what going on for Lucy and Jules in that episode as they're trying to piece together their past.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: So, so transitioning from your episode to co writing the, uh, 100 episode, what would that like? Be good, your episode, you'd still. The series, it's still figuring it out.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: And there's some big revelations in yours and particularly in five, the next episode, but you jump to nine.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: And there's a lot more revealed.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: It's almost like a whole nother season for real.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: And the scenes are revealed and they're so Jim packed. Yeah.
[00:45:49] Speaker A: And so what would you like, write or co writing that?
[00:45:55] Speaker B: Well, that was, I mean, also really amazing because it Amy Louise Johnson, who was my co writer and then Allie Weinstein actually wrote a couple of scenes as well. And it was just like, I think one of the things about tv when it works really well is it really is such a team sport. And, you know, that, like, any sport can go remarkably well, and it can also be like an epic failure. And I think when it actually works really, really well, it's so exciting because you can really see everyone's strengths. You know, everyone, you know, I'm always like, I'm an emotional person. I'm a dialogue person. I'm, you know, I really can get those to the heart of those types of scenes. And one of the things, I mean, Amy's good at so many things, but one of the things she's really good at is, like, she's really, really smart about, like, structure of, like, these kind of, like, very dramatic, like, scenes and these sequences. And she kind of just really thinks that way and can kind of puzzle through those types of things. So it was just really valuable to be able to work with her directly in that way. And just also, I mean, anytime I've shared an episode, you know, now I've shared three different episodes on three different shows.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:47:12] Speaker B: And I have learned so much. You know, on my first show, it was like my colleague Michael v. Ross, who was just like, you know, incredible. He'd worked on so many different series, and he just also master of structure, which was just a really incredible thing to work with. I thought we really complemented each other really well. And then on this last show that I worked on, also I worked with this writer named Sean Hennan, who is just like, he literally knows, not even joking. Like, the plot to like every, like eighties, nineties, every eighties and nineties heist film that, like, you can imagine. Like, it's kind of incredible. He's an encyclopedia.
And so especially working on a police procedural. I mean, he's worked on also many of those types of shows for a long time. So I'm working also very closely with John Collin, who's also very good at all that kind of stuff. So it's really, again, when tv works really well in this kind of way, like this apprentice way, it's like you can't help but learn. And it's an exciting thing to be like. I mean, I remember the first time I was in a room, I was like, wow. To be honest, as a playwright, the first time I walked into a television room, it was ten writers. And I was like, really? Do you need this many people?
And to be honest, that was like, literally my honest reaction and when I got into it and I really experienced it, I was like, it really is so incredible because you can literally be like, you know, my friend Sasha Stroman, who's just like, so fucking hilarious, she's so brilliant. And literally, you know, somebody would walk in in the middle of writing an episode and just be like, I need a joke. And she could just, you know, she's just like a joke machine. She can just like, turn one out, turn another one out, you know what I mean? And it's just really cool when you can actually put everyone's superpowers together and make it into something great. And so honestly, it's really cool when you're ahead. I mean, you know, it's kind of funny because obviously I'm very proud of 104 and I'm proud of, like, all that, but sometimes the things I'm really even more proud of are, like, certain pitches that I'm like, yeah, like, it made it, like, I actually, that was pitch, you know, and it's like, not even my episode, but it's like, I'm so glad that that sort of made it because it was a storyline I was really passionate about or something I really cared about and it ended up making it, you know, so, so, yeah, it's like, it's. It really is more so than any other type of writing I've ever done. More. So it's funny because people always are like, oh, playwriting is very team. And I'm like, yes, but in such a different way because the day the script is mine and it's a different thing. Whereas with tv, it's like a very, granted, I haven't been a showrunner, so that's a very different thing. But as a writer on staff so far, it feels like it can be a really selfless form of writing and it sort of like forces you to let go in a way that I think is actually can be really empowering and can be really, really positive. It can be. Can be.
[00:50:24] Speaker A: So if season two gets Greenland, you get the call. Will you come back?
[00:50:33] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, yeah, if the show is going to come back. I 100%. I loved working on the show so much.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: I didn't want to assume that I would have fallen out of my chair if you said, now I'm done.
How was it working with so many bad ads? Women and like, the men are there.
Yes, they, they very much play as they should invent. Serge, particularly second fiddle. How is what, no event taking up the act. But I mean, one of the exclusive marks it's about that.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:32] Speaker A: Topic. And so again, no offense to anyone, but how would that dynamic, that cohesion of Vincy's really important not judge I Virginia for queer wing Felix. Well, it was wife. I mean, right, right.
[00:52:00] Speaker B: I mean, I think that was really important, too. I mean, I think that was like such a poll and I'm sure because of, like, knowing what, you know, the original series meant to so many people and so sort of having that, you know, queer storyline at the heart of the series.
So I know for Anna, just in general, it was really important for her to involve, you know, queer women and really, like, in a beautiful way. I mean, like our lead producer, our, you know, even down to, like, our, you know, our costume, like our, the person who was, I'm not remembering their title exactly, but whoever was like, you know, the coordinator who basically, you know, went, you know, with costumes and everything and she was also a queer woman. And like, two of the writers, you know, myself included on the staff, like, it was really, it was a really, really special thing. And, yeah, directors, a director, one of the directors in particular that I know of. So that, and just women in general, I think it was just really special. Like, it was a really, I mean, I'm someone who, I've been really lucky in my life. I love working with women. I, you know, I went to an all girls school. Like, I, it's something that is, has, I've always appreciated and I think being around really, like, you know, strong women, amazing women leaders is like such, it's sad that it's still, and I think Anna talks about that in the, you know, sort of book is that it's, it's this kind of sad thing is that it is still, you know, not, you know, something that's that common. And I remember actually, and she might have, she might talk about in the backstage or back look.
But she said something to me we were talking about because when the show premiered in Canada at Banff, Anna said something to me about how they were having this, there was going to be this conversation with several women showrunners, or I should say showrunners who happen to be women. And I, the woman wasn't, who was interviewing was like a woman of like a, you know, I would say probably like a Zeniel or Gen Z and honestly, like, wasn't going to ask anything related to that because she was kind of like, you know, we're sort of over this, right? And actually it was sort of like then they had to have the conversation being like, and it's sad, like, I mean, I wish that we were at that place, but unfortunately that, you know, something Anna said, like, you know, yeah, it might be 2024, but still, the fact that this is a conversation among, like, four women who are showrunners is actually really a rarity. Like, it's the, except, you know, it's great that this is happening, but it doesn't actually mean that this is not the exception to the rule. So I think that it was a combination of, I mean, and again, like, very much like, kudos to Anna for really sort of working hard to sort of forge that space.
And I think it really started with the room. And, you know, we definitely, we had represent Anayat and also Julian, who was our amazing writer's assistant. Anayat was one of the writers in the room. So we did have some men represented. Yeah.
[00:55:19] Speaker A: Well, goodness.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: I know you were worried. I know you're really worried and who are, like, wonderful, like, the most. Oh, my God, Juliane. He actually, Julian co wrote 108. 108 with Sharon Rothstein. It was incredible.
Yeah. So it was. It was really special. And on my episode in particular, it was so cool because it was my first time on set, and here I am with my director, Don Wilkinson. And then my DP was also a woman, which was amazing. And, like, so it was, like, really amazing to have, like the, you know, the, you know, the creative team be women, which was really, really special.
Yeah. It was a really, really cool. It was a really, really cool experience, for sure.
[00:56:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Almost all of my podcast team are young women, and I totally get that dynamic. And the.
A lot of the bets, ideas on this video, cats come from my team members, and I just get to sit back and just marvel at what they create alongside me. But two questions before we wrap up, although literally, I could talk to you for hours because, well, listen, I'm around.
[00:56:56] Speaker B: I'm around if you ever want to have a conversation off the. Off of the.
[00:57:03] Speaker A: Screen, so. But getting back to empowerment, if there are any expiring world, straight judges matter.
Actors, script writers, directors, but particularly real representation, because that's so important.
That show, the flagship series, did so much to pavement the way in its own way. And so you've been a playwright, author, going to become more of an author with the novel, but you've. You're also a poet and you're now a script writer. And so you've won many hats. And we both knew very different versions of ourselves in 070809 and that in our fiction class.
[00:58:19] Speaker B: Remember that?
[00:58:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And song writing and all of that. Jed's but you, we both wear many different hats, and I'm a cisgendered straight male. You're grateful to a woman. I love that.
The first line of your bio and is real playwright. And that photo of you. Oh, my goodness.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: Thanks. Special thanks to Antonio. Antonio delucci did my. Who's a darling? Did my headshot, and he. Hire him. He makes me look like such a badass. He makes me look way cooler than.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: I actually mention fucking.
I mean, I'm, like, so jealous of that headshot.
[00:59:25] Speaker B: Well, listen, he's. Hire him. He's amazing. I always. As much as I can, putting him out there. Yeah. He, like, I. Honestly, that's probably in a few years, I'm gonna have to probably switch it, but I still look like that. I think. I think.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: Getting back to the question, though, any expiring actors, playwrights, because you. You wear many hats. What would be some action points on some advice you would give than stepping into this Pacific moment of time?
[01:00:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think more than anything, I feel like what I see and what. And one from what I've experienced is, like, is just putting yourself out there, you know, like, don't. No matter what form it is, like, if it's, you know, if you're a filmmaker, like, figure it out and make a short film happen. You know, if you are or, you know, you're interested in that, even if you don't know, like, I'm a filmmaker, but you're like, I'm interested in making a film. I'm an artist. You know, make it happen. Like, do it. Apply for the grant. Do it. You know what I mean? Put. Put on the stage reading of the play. I mean, a story I tell often is, like, when I moved back to New Orleans after college, I, like, put together this, like, very, like, this production. I got the space of this unitarian church where I used to go. They gave me the space for free. I put on this production of this play. It was a very small audience turnout that came out, but we did it, and it was like, you know, we put it together. We did the, you know, I was able to do it, got the actors, made it happen, and, you know, it was such a great experience. And I think, like, I think also doing the thing without, which is. I think the harder part is doing the thing without the expectation that it will necessarily, like, lead to something, just doing it because you want to be doing it and knowing that you have that thing that you made. And, yes, it very well might lead to getting an agent. It very well might lead to, you know, it's probably going to lead to meeting great people and maybe leading to the next gig in a way that you didn't expect. You know, I think that's something that's really interesting, too. You know, I've done things where I worked on this one project which was like, we created these. I created this thing called a live Lunch series, which was creating these theater pieces within workplaces. And through that, I ended up meeting this wonderful guy named Harry Poster, who didn't even know me as a writer. He knew me from creating this thing and approached me about writing a play for this, a children's theater company that he was taking over in North Carolina. And it was like, I'd never written a children's play before. Like, it just totally, like, took me in this direction that was unexpected and wonderful and was, like, such a valuable thing that I've done in my life. So I think just, like, putting it out there, you know, like, I, one of my dear friends who, like, runs this amazing podcast company called Girl Tales, like, she just, like, made it happen.
[01:02:47] Speaker A: Like, she just an awesome name.
[01:02:50] Speaker B: Yeah, girl.
It is really incredible. It's a very special, you know, podcast that basically puts, you know, girls and non binary kids at the center of the narrative and just sort of, like, it started with remaking different fairy tales and it sort of expanded into this huge thing. But, like, so many people that I know, I think it's just like, like making the work and just, like, putting yourself out there and which I know is, like, really scary, but, yeah, like, doing the open mic night, like, doing, you know, signing up for the reading series, going and meeting people at, you know, whatever it is, like finding the places that you're excited about and looking for those areas where, like, you can find your people and you can make work and, and knowing that, like, it's okay. Like, I remember, like, many years ago, Pete Zapp, who is my professor at the College of Santa Fe, saying that, you know, if you are gathering a group, if you gather a group of people in a room and are reading a play, you're still an actor. You're an actor while you're doing that, you know, and whatever it is that allows you to be an artist and to be and to really, like, flex that muscle in whatever way that it is, I think, is, is a really, really valuable thing.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, I agree with everything you just said. And so, lads, question.
I like to think, and I hope that people with disabilities and people who have yet to discover their disabilities and all the intersections within those group groups. Uh, watch in legend to this.
It's not just, uh, podcasts. It's not just video cats. It's a program. It's a show.
But I'm not naive enough. Certainly, you knew a much naive version.
[01:05:10] Speaker B: Of you did, too. So don't worry.
[01:05:18] Speaker A: Tipsy.
That will never happen.
Both of our careers will be over.
Uh, but I'm not naive to think that both groups or groups within those groups take away the same things as the others. So, as my guests, what do you hope that people with disabilities, particularly we are people with disability, take away from this episode? And really, we could do a entire Nonda episode on just unpacking the LGBTQ community within the disability community.
[01:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:21] Speaker A: And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities take away from everything we've talked about?
[01:06:38] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I'll say just like, working on this show, something that was really wonderful as a personal experience that I've never had was one of our actors in the show is Deafendehenhezen, and having the experience on death.
[01:06:54] Speaker A: So wanted to mention that's okay.
Like, and I mean, judge seeing edge ill on screen from the get go, and then I just got wrapped up on and bonding over the job.
[01:07:21] Speaker B: It is a really special thing. Yeah. I mean, I think that was really. Again, you know, we're praising Anna, but it's true. Like, she was. That was something from the beginning. She worked on another show where she worked with a deaf actor, and she really wanted that rep. Like always, Charlie was always going to be a deaf character. That was always, always the case. It wasn't that we met an actor. It was literally. I mean, yes, we have a wonderful actor who plays Charlie, but it. It really was. The idea was from the, you know, from inception of the. Of the character was that Charlie was deaf, so. And it was a really incredible thing to experience because, like, as a writer, we worked with, um, a translator who also gave us, like, you know, ways in which phrases would make more sense.
[01:08:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:14] Speaker B: You know, for certain moments, you know, it was PJ's. The PJ's, yeah. Which is a really special. And the callback that happens actually is really great. But that was something that was cool, you know, in terms of, you know, as I. So, you know, in our pre production meetings, we met with them, and then there was also. So there was the translator, and then there was also, you know, our actor specific translator on set to work, you know, so we had both, which was really cool. So it was like, we had somebody who was working with us on the language, and then we also had someone who was a specific translator for our actor, which was really cool. I mean, it was just, like, such a special. I learned so much. I learned so much. And it was, it was a really humbling and, like, wonderful experience to have as a writer.
And I think I, it's, yeah, I mean, I hope just to, you know, kind of to your question, it's like, I know. You know, I was thinking you should really talk to Carrie Cox, who is an amazing disability warrior who is a graduate of the college of already. Oh, great.
[01:09:17] Speaker A: I've interviewed her Hud been as well for the same theater companies.
[01:09:28] Speaker B: Oh, amazing. Yeah, she's, I mean, she's really been such an advocate. And I was also going to say that Ryan Haddad, who is a really incredible actor and writer who wrote this beautiful play called dark disabled stories that I really think about all the time.
And I just, you know, what I really hope to your question is that, yeah, like, seeing folks, like, seeing the carries and the ryans and seeing sort of the performances that are happening on screen and seeing ASL happening in all these ways is just like knowing that what's possible and that the ways in which, of course, there are all the limitations that still exist in Hollywood and Broadway and et cetera, but just sort of like seeing the ways that sort of the world can expand and should expand and knowing that it's possible and not sort of saying, like, I can't do this. Or even like, there's, you know, there's that quote from, you know, however you might feel about Kamala Harris, but I, I do love her, but I also, there is a quote recently from her which is, and I'm going to misquote it, but it's something along the lines of not being afraid to do something just because you're the first one to do it.
[01:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:10:49] Speaker B: And I think a lot of the times that's, you know, for those of us that are on the margins in whatever way, you know, we often have to create these opportunities and push out and forge our way for the first time. And it's a gift and a beautiful thing that more and more we're having folks that we can look to and say, wow, like, you did this before. I'm standing, you know, like, on, you know, on your shoulders.
But I think, like, not, you know, as hard as these industries are in so many ways and in this moment in time is like, just, you know, believing in the work and, you know, if you are as one of one of us who just as they say, right? If you can't see yourself doing anything else, then then keep doing right.
[01:11:46] Speaker A: You have been listening to disability empowerment. Now I would like to thank my dads, you originally, and the Disability Empowerment team that made this episode possible.
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