Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome to disability empowerment now season 4.5 bonus.
I'm your host, Keith Mevijensini.
Today I'm talking to my dear friends Jared Perkins and Gemma Thomas of the children's clinic in Tucson, Arizona.
Welcome, you two.
[00:00:41] Speaker C: Hey, Keith. Good to see you again, and thank you so much for having us on.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah, great to see you and delighted to be here.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: So I objectionably call both of you my dear friends of God, but also the dynamic duo of children's health care.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: Well, that is a very humbling honor. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. Gemma and I have been working together for 10 years at the clinic, and we're really passionate about our mission, and we're honored to do the work. Yeah.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: So we all met when I joined Arizona Lind, and a friend of ours, Kyle Linger, nominated me for the program, and we all met at mixer Jared. I think we met earlier on Cody commission on disability issues.
But Jim meeting you at the mixer.
And I accidentally got dragged into that program, which I loved.
It was just totally out of my wheelhouse, much like what I do now. If anyone had predicted I would be doing this in 2018, I would have been like, are you drunk?
You have the wrong person here.
That's not me. That will never be me. I don't interview people.
Famous last words, people. But let's move on and get to the very critical and vital work that the children's clinic does.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks, Keith. And, you know, I remember that Arizona lend mixer fondly.
I was an Arizona land fellow, I think, the year before you were. And I don't know if you feel the same, but I certainly think that that experience for me was a valuable one that has informed the work that I do at children's clinics. Now, they didn't teach you to be a podcast host, but I bet you learned a lot from it.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, no. The reason why I'd say that it was completely out of my wheelhouse is that most of my cohort were in health care in some degree or in speech pathology.
And here I am, this yuppie little thing in public administration, and it should felt very, very foreign. Although they did. I did actually meet another cohort who had. Who had cp. You don't ever get over it at all, Trudge me. I've tried and I've failed.
But the hugest honor of that year was when Eileen McGrath, my advisor, asked me to teach entire class on cerebral palsy.
And I said, yeah, I could do that. I mean, I can speak for three, five, ten hours, but I can't really talk about the female side. And so this is why we should split the time between me and Leanne Lucro, who I've had on the podcast before.
And so. Hi, Lian again.
And so that, that in and of itself was what the prize of mention, so to speak.
My vaja sprang that on me and I'm like, okay, luckily I know what I'm talking about.
But anyway, enough about me and my exploits.
Let's get back to the vital, critical walk that the Children's Clinic.
Jared, you and I were having a conversation several years ago, and you were just blowing my mind sky high with all of the creative expansion that the Children's Clinic now did then.
And I, I remember thinking that the entire episode that I really want to do, damn, why didn't I record that? And so it took a few, a few more years for the stars to align.
And so now leaders are into everything that the Children's Clinic now does.
[00:07:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, so I'll give a kind of brief kind of intro to who we are. The Children's Clinics has been around since, since the forties and started as a polio clinic in a doctor's garage, which.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Is very Tucson fantastic for a person born in the 40s.
How do you, how did you do it?
[00:08:05] Speaker C: Yeah, thankfully it wasn't me, but it's very Tucson grassroots. Right. That we would, you know, we saw and a group of doctors who were a part of a group called Square and Compass got together and said, hey, let's make sure that kids don't have to go to Phoenix and that they can stay in Tucson to get care. So they started a clinic in their backyard. And today the Children's clinics is now evolved to what is known as a multi specialty interdisciplinary clinic. It's officially an msic. And there are really only a handful of clinics like ours in the country that are outpatient multi specialty clinics where everything is provided under one roof. So we have a full primary care where we see kids and adults. We'll see our kids into their adulthood for the remaining periods of their life.
We'll see the parents of kids. So we'll see the whole family because we value people seeking health together.
We have a full behavioral health program where we have counseling. We'll do individual group marriage counseling. We have developmental pediatricians. As we all know that behavioral health and mental health is an extremely essential part to health care, especially for families who have they recognize they're not going to have the same life journey that their peers might. And so it's helpful to Talk to somebody about that.
We have Arizona's largest pediatric rehab program, which is about 35 therapists. Speech, OTPT, audiology, dietitians.
They're teaching kids to eat and swallow. They're doing post surgery, cochlear implant, pre and post cochlear implant. So we're teaching kids that are hearing for the very first time that happens on site.
And then we have multi specialty clinics. And this is, we contract with almost every single pediatric specialist in Tucson, comes to clinic the clinic. And this is through our partnerships with Tucson Medical Center, Banner and the community. They all their pediatric specialists come on site and we have clinics with all of them with big support teams. Our multi specialty clinics are our most complex clinics. And those are. There's a hand, there's like 15 of them. CP is one of those where we have a team of physicians. You know, it can be, you know, five, six, seven, eight physicians with an entire support team. It could be physical therapists, it could be speech therapists, nurses, social workers, community advocates.
And they're all in the room at the same time arguing over what's best in care. And I think that's what makes us so unique in that. Where else do you get an entire care team in the same room arguing over what's best?
I think that's what makes us so unique. And then we do a whole bunch of other things, which is I think what you're referring to.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: And.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: But Gemma. I'll let Gemma talk about that because that's part of what Gemma oversees as well.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Before you start, Gemma, I would be remiss if I did not mention, I believe the medical director, Dr. Sydney Wright, who I got to introduce at the Community foundation of Southern Arizona. Jared, you need to stop traveling.
That's the inside joke. But I got to refer to Sydney very much as Tucson's.
Not only Tucson's, but kept secret, which I usually reserve for the clinic as a whole.
But Arizona's bad kept secret.
She is at the top of every field in my humble opinion. And again, I'm not involved in health care in any way. But reading a paragraph of her resume was so amazing.
So Gemma, go on.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Well, it's hard to follow that, Keith, because you're right. Dr. Sydney Rice is the award winning.
Dr. Rice is really one of the greatest parts of the work that Jared and I get to do is learning from her and advocating alongside her for the kids and families in our community.
So what Jared was alluding to is our childhood experiences program.
He talked about primary care, specialty medical care, dental Care, behavioral health, and then all of our robust rehabilitative therapies. And in addition to that, you know, our philosophy is if our kids are working day in and day out in physical therapy sessions, they're coming to their four hour long multidisciplinary clinic visits, they're having labs drawn, they're, you know, they're, they're really committing to their health and well being.
What is it all for? Right? I mean, they want to. Kids have to have a childhood. There's got to be something to enjoy at the end of all of that, right? And so what started as signature events at children's clinics, you know, a Halloween party, some toys at the holidays, has really evolved into this robust program designed to help kids just be kids. And so we actually do still have our Halloween party, where literally hundreds of our patients and their siblings will come in a couple of weeks for trick or treating and an accessible haunted house and some time to be together in community.
We still do toys around the holidays, but this is now thousands of our patients and their siblings coming. Wow. I know, I know. It's really, it's really grown.
We have a spring event dedicated to adaptive recreation, and we have a big back to school event in the summer. And the next component of that is our adaptive recreation program, which might be one of the things you were talking about, Keith, in terms of just how we've sort of creatively grown and evolved as an organization.
What was born out of the idea of adaptive tricycles, which are a fun and very important part of the therapy that happens at Children's Clinic, we had a staff member who said all of our kids deserve to feel the joy of riding a bike. How can we get these bikes and trikes to our patients so that they're not just riding them when they're at the clinic, but they actually have them at home, they belong to them. They can go on family bike rides and they don't have to just experience this in therapy.
That was around the same time we were embarking on a journey to really grow philanthropic support for our organization.
And we ended up raising enough money to give out over the years, now over 400 adaptive tricycles, which maybe doesn't sound like that much, but I just signed a purchase order for a bike yesterday last week, and it was $2,500 for one adaptive tricycle. So it's not a small endeavor for sure.
That being said, beyond adaptive tricycles, we now have an adaptive soccer team, a basketball team, a tennis team, we've had a dance program.
We've had an adaptive theater program.
We've got all sorts of really fun activities for our patients to, you know, participate in and really enrich their lives.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: How do I follow that?
You're right, Jim. That was the part of the phone call where I would like I have to sit down. That is totally too amazing. And I'm very envious.
I did not have this experience at all when I was growing up.
Both of you have been at this job.
Well, not really a job, more of a patch in life calling. I guess we're all doing what God put a job to do, whether or not we believe in him.
How do you keep the pageant alive? How do you grow the pageant and the dedication for as long as you do? Have again, the dynamic duo of children's health care.
How do you do it?
[00:18:31] Speaker C: Well, I'll let you know. Gemma, I'm sure, has her own ways. But what I think a lot about is because we have been around for so long, even our 10 year tenure here is just like a blip on the 80 year legacy of the clinic. And so I kind of feel this like this obligation to make sure Tucson has something even better 80 years from now. And so there is this kind of like ownership over that, this responsibility that Tucson's families deserve the clinic and it needs to be even better. So there's that. That passion of this is really important to a lot of people. But then, you know, the second piece is that we have an absolutely incredible team. I mean down from our leadership team to the entire staff.
I watch what they do on a daily basis and I just think, how could you not love the work you do? You're surrounded by people who are some of the most dynamic people in health care. And so this overwhelming responsibility to our community to keep this legacy going with this incredible team makes it feel like our future is endless. Right? We could do anything and our families deserve that. And so that's kind of what keeps me going. I don't know. Gemma, what about you?
[00:20:09] Speaker A: I don't know that I could have said it better myself. I mean, the mission is, I think, what brings all of us here and keeps us here. But then, you know, Keith, you said it's not really a job.
It's like we get to do this work and we get to do it with like minded people who are passionate about the same things. And I'm sure you've heard it in Jared's, you know, comments already. His leadership has really been for me, a very easy thing to, to want to be part of you know, the. The vision for the future and the importance of the work is just contagious. And so, yeah. Lucky to get to do it.
[00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate it.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Again, how do I follow that? I mean, it's interesting seen that you use the word contagious, but I. I totally get where you're coming from, Jared. You need to really abduct me and stop me in one of your suitcases.
Fidge, man traveled literally everywhere.
I mean, damn.
But I mean, you've also been the president of the board of the Origins Society of Arizona.
What else?
Oh, what haven't you done in your life?
And don't think I'm gonna skip huge.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, Gemma's on every board.
You know, and to say about travel, I think what's also really important is, you know, I've got four kids and some. Sometimes when we do work where we feel a heavy responsibility, it's easy to get so caught up in that that you don't pay attention to those who are around you. And so I've really made an effort to be as present of a father and a partner as I can be. So I tried to deliver on both those spaces. But, yeah, you know, the autism side was part of the Autism Society, which has been an honor. Keith, I met you on Cody, the commission on disability issues for the city.
There's all kinds of amazing organizations. I mean, that's kind of what's incredible about Tucson is you can work somewhere like the clinic, which is amazing, but then also go beyond boards of incredible organizations. I just joined the board of Catholic Community Services, and I do some work with Pima County. I'm trying to work at the state level with advocacy, with our Access program. And so I think it's important. I mean, if you are passionate and you have a skill set to share, we ask people, come share it with us. And so why not go share it with others? So Gemma's the perfect example of sharing her skill sets in the community. So.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: Well, you know, Jared does a really great job of modeling a balance of.
To the best of all of our abilities. Right. A work life balance where you're CEO by day, dad and husband by night, and you're also an individual somewhere in there, too, and a volunteer and so many other things. So I don't know that I have the formula down quite right about how to balance all of those different commitments out just yet. But I think you're, as you've shared, balancing travel time with family and service to your community is something that each of the members at least of the executive team, really try to emulate.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: And Joe, Gemma, what is everything you do outside the podcast?
Well, I mean, I can make it as long as I want because I own it.
I will annoy my producer and I'll do so happily for you and Jerry.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: Well, I think Jared's exaggerating a little bit. I really don't have too many commitments at this point. I am on the board of the Children's Museum of Tucson and Oro Valley and I've done that for many years.
You know, their mission is, you know, similar to the clinic in terms of very child and family focused and about making the Tucson community a better place to, to live and play. So, you know, really enjoyed that.
I'm also on the board of the Pima Community College foundation.
And so that I've only been doing for a couple of years, but has been a really interesting and sort of new perspective for me in terms of what's happening in higher education in our community and just how valuable our community college is not just for educational pursuits, but workforce development, economic development.
It's a huge, huge organization. So I've enjoyed supporting that. And then in all of my leftover free time, I am pursuing a PhD in industrial and organizational psychology. So what time I do have, I'm often spending reading and writing a lot.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Wow.
Wow. We could just talk about the fun times you have with your PhD and have you thought about your disadaging yet? Have you started a savings account for your dead sedation?
Because. Because they grow up fast, just like children.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Not fast enough, it seems.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Amen to that.
And so where do you see the clinic going in the next 5 to 10 to 15? 15.
I'm sure the board has already tried to rope you, Jared, into a 20 more year contract.
If they haven't, they really need to come see me and I will get them to do that.
[00:27:18] Speaker C: Well, it's funny you ask about where we're going next because it's what we've been spending our time talking about. What is our future and what is the legacy we are leaving right now? So, you know, we've been talking about what we call our ten year moonshot. And that really is what do we see 10 years from now for the clinic? And I think it's not just a conversation about the clinic, but it's about what do we see healthcare like in 10 years from now?
And specifically healthcare for those who have both medical and social complexities who are gonna need more, who need more support. And right now you see conversations where at the federal and state levels, we're constantly debating who's gonna get what and what are we gonna take away. And, you know, by this decision, all of a sudden, this group may or may not have in the future. And, you know, I think those are difficult conversations for our families, families that can breed inconsistency and care. And that's not what we need. We don't need inconsistent care. And so I think the clinic's trying to think about what role do we play in a consistent healthcare future for our population. And so one thing we've been talking a lot about is ensuring that Arizona has a model of care for complex populations that is consistent across the state and that, you know, so if we're talking 10 years from now, doesn't matter what your insurance is.
So despite who your insurance is, whether you do or don't have it, you have access to the best possible model of care for complex populations. And so we believe strongly in the model of care we have. We've won many awards for it.
It's been nationally recognized as one of the best in the country. And so how do we ensure that everyone, every child in the state who needs our services has access to it, no matter what their insurance or ability to pay?
And so that's what we have been talking about as an organization. And not just services, but all the other things we do. Right. So as Gemma mentioned, our adaptive recreation programs, we have family assistance funding where we help families pay for mortgages and utilities and diapers and transportation. All of that feeds into the social determinants of health to quality of life outcomes. And every family deserves to have access to a perfect model of health care. And so how do we deliver that?
And so that's what we've been talking about.
And, you know, whether it's me in 10 years or not, we are building a team around us of leaders that all buy into that mission. And every one of them is capable of making sure that we deliver on that. But yeah, Gemma, any other thoughts on our future?
[00:30:24] Speaker A: No, I think I'll just share. You know, Jared mentioned we call it our moonshot because the vision for the future is just as big as the vision was before man had stepped foot on the moon. Right. We recognize the healthcare system right now is not working.
And how we are going to exist in a place where it works perfectly ten years from now, at least for our organization, is no small feat. And so we don't know yet how we're going to get there, much like we didn't know how we were going to get to the moon when we committed to going to the moon.
So I think there's a lot of energy and excitement and also, you know, some healthy hesitation about, holy cow, how are we going to do this?
But to Jared's point, we have so many of our capable leaders committed to figuring it out together. The collaborative spirit of children's clinics is. I have full confidence it will carry us there.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: So that leads into the last two questions.
When you talk about capable leaders, legend Tim, that some of the listeners and viewers of this episode are really pumped and motivated to follow in your footsteps.
At least try to follow in your footsteps.
What would be some action steps you would give them, ads they venture into.
And I can't believe I'm about to say that. The great unknown of health, How do you navigate that? Particularly when you come out of graduate school or medical school or even, even undergrad.
What is that like?
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:32:47] Speaker C: Yeah. But, you know, I hope there are people who are so passionate and motivated about what's next in healthcare that they are going into it. Because I'll tell you, healthcare is definitely facing a shortage of providers, let alone visionaries that are coming next. Right. So I think I would say if you're early in it, go get experience on the front lines. Right? Go spend time with patients and go volunteer somewhere or go. I started doing in home counseling when I was first getting into healthcare, working with kids directly who had suffered pretty significant trauma in their lives. And it really shaped my understanding of kind of how hard it is to do the work.
But then the other thing I would say is what we really need, and Gemma was kind of alluding to it, is we need people who are willing to dream the impossible and say, I know it works this way right now, and I know there are a thousand barriers ahead of us.
How are we going to build something bigger and better?
And that's. It can be really daunting when you look at something like health care and say, man, it just. It seems like so much is broken and so let's just limp along. Well, that isn't the future of health care, I think any of us want to see. And so I think what we need are people who are going to say, you know, this could be. So this could be on the moon. We don't know how to launch yet. We don't. We don't even know how to survive in space.
But I'm going to come in and I'm going to build the moon, and that's what we need. I Think. And that's what as at the clinic, we're constant. We're beginning to really ask ourselves, what does moonshot thinking look like? How do we build something that's currently impossible? And I think our next generation is willing to imagine the impossible. Yeah. Gemma, what do you thought?
[00:34:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you've shared. Jared and Keith, you know, the physician shortage is a national issue. The talent pool in healthcare, broadly speaking, is shrinking. And so, you know, I mentioned Pima Community College, but those organizations that are training and educating are next generation of workers and leaders.
It's just so essential that we're, you know, innovating and thinking about new ways of doing the work.
I think the advice I would give to somebody starting out is certainly listen to Jared's advice. And so much of my experience in my career has been driven by building strong relationships. And I think that is a skill set and, and a value that so many of our, you know, new folks entering the world of health care like we, this thing takes a village and we are all in it together. And so building those connections, creating those partnerships, it's, it's going to be essential to get the work done. I mean, Jared talked about it in our legacy earlier. We wouldn't be here if it were not for Square encompass Tucson Medical center and Banner umc. I mean those, those founding partners are truly the foundation of the work that we do so value and build those relationships.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: So I'd like to thank and imagine Thirds that just became a international podcasts.
So clearly we're doing something right.
I like to think that both people with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities listen and watch this program.
I'm under no delusion that both groups or groups within those groups take away the same things from every episode.
So as my guests, what do you hope that people would do?
I can't believe I stumbled on that word.
Wow.
Well, take two. Take two.
[00:37:56] Speaker A: You can cut that in post, right?
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Sure. Although my new producer may just leave it in, I don't know.
[00:38:09] Speaker C: But.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Okay.
What do you hope that people with disabilities take away from everything we've talked about in this episode? And what do you hope that those neurotypicals are tabs, as we call them in the community, temporarily abled bodied individuals?
I mean, yeah, it, it's going to affect you personally of someone you know Py. Throughout your lives. It, it's just a given and so almost a given. And so what do you hope that they.
That the people who have yet to Discover and embrace their own disabilities.
Take away from this episode.
[00:39:25] Speaker C: That's a good question, Ethan.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: That's why it's the large one across every single episode I've ever done in or ever do.
[00:39:41] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's a great, great ender. Well, you know, so being at the.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: Club, like your career, Jared, because it never, ever, ever, ever going to end.
[00:39:58] Speaker C: Well, let's hope it does someday, right?
You know. You know, being here 10 years, I think the way our kind of community, and maybe say that broader, was, you know, healthcare is already complicated. It's one of the most complicated systems possible.
And if that's just you're trying to manage simple things, the more complicated those things are you're seeking, the more complicated healthcare becomes.
And it kind of seems, you know, over the years we've just been, well, that's the way it is. But every now and again we have a pretty amazing, dynamic person who comes along and says, it shouldn't be like that.
That's how we got here, right? We had a Dr. Ted Walker who said, it shouldn't be like that.
You should have. Everybody should have access to the most incredible health care possible. And so I think the takeaway I hope everyone hears is everyone deserves access to incredible health care.
Sometimes that's more complicated and we have an obligation to figure out how to make the access less complicated and the service delivery even better.
And so that's what we're trying to do. So you're right. Everyone eventually is going to have some form of disability and is going to need services and health care that's more complicated than maybe they're getting now.
And you will discover someday how hard that is.
And it's not okay, right? We all deserve access to the best healthcare possible. And so I hope people take away.
[00:41:57] Speaker A: That.
[00:42:00] Speaker C: We have a calling.
And if you have it, go find a way to create the best possible healthcare space for everyone who needs it. And sometimes it might take a little bit of harder work, but the payoff in the end is that everyone deserves that.
So, yeah, I mean, that's, that's my thought. Gemma.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Mike drop.
Yeah, I mean, everything Jared said, I think, you know, every person deserves perfect health care, period.
And we don't have it yet. And so I hope that that lights a fire and that we've inspired a few more folks to join the cause and embark on the journey of. We may not know yet how we're going to get there, but we're committed to getting there one way or another.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Very well said. I hope you two will come back for part two, Part three, Part four, Part five, and why not part six?
The Birds we need to have a long overdue dinner at the Arizona Sands Club. Come on guys, we can make it happen before the end of this year. I would like to thank my esteemed gads Jared Perkins and Jim Adams for a delightful and lively conversation on the complexities of health care or Agile affectionately, very affectionately referred to their match, the dynamic duo of Children's health care.
Thank you both.
You have been listening to Ditzen Disability Empowerment Now. I would like to thank my guests, you, the listener, and the Disability Empowerment now team that made this episode possible.
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