Episode Transcript
*This episode contains mentions of domestic abuse, marital abuse and other related topics surrounding abuse, viewer discretion is advised*
Keith: Welcome to Disability Empowerment Now I'm your host, Keith Murfee DeConcini. Today I'm talking with one of my extremely close friends Katherine Stratford, a political activist, and a newly deaf mother. Who is also running for a local election. Kat. Welcome to the podcast.
Kat: Thank you so much. Keep I'm so excited to be here.
Keith: Thank you for agreeing to the interview.
Kat: Well you really twisted my arm.
Keith: Yeah, I'm known for this haha. So Kat, I know you, but-I'm really fortunate that way-but let the listeners know who you are because you have a very interesting story that I just learned about a few months ago.
Kat: Thank you. I appreciate that so much. Um, so my name is Kat Stratford and I am a single mother of two amazing kids. One of whom happens to be trans. Um, as Keith said, I am a, I'm technically still hard of hearing, but I will be at least effectively deaf very soon. I have a rare autoimmune disease called Ménière’s Disease, and boy has it moved fast! I got diagnosed in 2020 and it's, I can't say that. Uh, it's the worst incurable disease that I could've gotten in 2020, but I can't pretend that I'm thrilled with it. Um, so I am currently communicating with you guys via hearing aids that you can't actually see, but there, yeah. Hearing aids. Um, and yeah, I'm also a candidate for state house in the newly redistricted LD 18. Um, and I'm hoping to win in a very crowded primary right now.
Keith: Oh, what brought you to Tucson? Are you a native or did you come from somewhere and out of every possible state out of every possible town in this great country of ours, why did you choose Tucson, AZ, to make your home?
Kat: Well first, let me preface that by saying that I love Tucson the way that Lesley Nope loves Pawnee, Indiana, uh, for you Parks and Rec fans out there. Um, it is just my favorite place in the whole world. I think it's the greatest city in the world. Um, prove me wrong. Paris, what Paris? Um, but I actually am originally from Indiana from a small place in Indiana called Nora. Nobody's ever heard of it. Um, and my family moved to Arizona, they moved to Phoenix when I was about 12 and I came down to Tucson on a road trip when I was 16 and I instantly fell in love with it.
I got to walk down fourth avenue and I was just like, there's art everywhere. Every surface that could be painted, had a mural. I went into Antigony bookshop and I was just like, I have found my spiritual home and I moved down here I want to say within a year of that visit? I wound up doing school half here and half in Phoenix to finish and graduate. Um, but yeah, I moved down here when I was about 17 and got my first job at the Sonic drive-in on Broadway.
Keith: Nice, nice and so after you had that experience, uh, and you got settled into your new home, did you find it difficult to maintain that fascination and that curiosity? Because sometimes that happens but I think I already know you that answer that NO it didn't wear off and it will probably never wear off but I'm trying to get inside your mind as a 17-year-old young woman who moved down here on her own. What was that like?
Kat: It was intense at first? Um, back then the minimum wage was $5.15 an hour and that's what I was making it Sonic. And it seems like no matter how much I worked, I couldn't quite make rent. Um, but I definitely wouldn't have been able to make rent in Phoenix. Um, but yeah, it was really challenging. Um, and then of course, when I was 20, I met the father of my children and I think that's really the only time that I've ever really struggled with the idea of staying in Tucson was when I was married. It was a very abusive marriage and I think in wanting to get out of those circumstances at one point, I thought I should leave Tucson.
Um, there's nothing here for me because none of my family lived here and I was very isolated. I didn't have any friends, it was just my ex-husband and his family. And so I thought I should get the heck out of Dodge. But fortunately, I was able to leave that situation and I didn't have to leave Tucson. And I rediscovered my love of Tucson as soon as I emerged from that cocoon.
Keith: So tell me about what it was like finding out you had this very real, rare inner ear disorder smack dab at the beginning of what is now a very long pandemic. Uh, and I mean, just finding out about that is like shattering and life-altering, I imagine, but finding out about it when everything around you is touch and go because of a global health emergency, must have added so much more weight to finding out-I don't know. So please tell me if I’m at all correct in assuming that?
Kat: Yes, it, it was actually completely earth-shattering. Um, so I found out that I had many Ménière’s Disease in July of 2020. I was actually in a campaign meeting, I was working as Laura Conover’s field director, and I was in a campaign meeting and I remember I had started to feel kind of dizzy and I honestly thought I must have eaten something bad because I started to feel really nauseous. Um, and it started to look like the room was physically spinning in a circle. Um, I had no idea what was happening. I wound up having to shut off my camera so that I could be sick. I kind of chalked it up to maybe like I ate something bad and after a few hours, the dizziness and the sickness passed, but I remember thinking, God, I hope that that doesn't happen again. And then the next week, same time, same exact time. I was in that same campaign meeting and it happened again. Um, and I remember this one was really bad because I had to actually like speak on camera, uh, while having this dizziness. I can't even imagine what it must have looked like or seemed like to other people, nobody seemed to notice, but it was really disorienting for me.
Um, and so after that, like I noticed that I was having some hearing loss. I'd had, you know, a couple of dizzy spells prior to this. Um, but nothing that like really made me think anything was wrong. So at this point, I was kind of thinking it must be an ear infection or something, right. Because that can cause dizziness and like, you know, mild hearing loss.
So I went to an ENT and my ears were fine. There was nothing that they could see that was wrong with them. And they started. To start run testing for a Ménière’s Disease. It was almost like a textbook case. If you look on like web MD or with a PDF, or like a description of Ménière’s Disease, it is exactly what I had. Um, and the, the spinning sensation that I was having, and the fact that the room looked like it was physically spinning. It was due to an involuntary eye movement called nystagmus, and it actually causes your eyeball to move like this. And it gives the sensation that the room is spinning. So nobody's certain what causes Ménière’s. Um, but there's no cure. There isn't even an FDA-approved treatment, but it looked like I only had it in one ear at the time. And so they, they were like, okay, you'll be able to. Live with this, they prescribed some medication. We started to do some testing. Um, and I remember thinking like this sucks. And then, then the other ear started to go. And that's when I knew that things were pretty serious. Only 10% of Ménière’s patients experience symptoms in both ears. It's called bilateral Ménière’s and Ménière’s Disease is already a rare disease so this makes it a rare form. And then in the last year in 2021, I, went into remission for a couple of months and I had hoped that it would stay that way. And then in the fall it came back with a fury. And since then, my hearing has degenerated to the point where I can't hear speech without hearing aids. And that is a pretty severe hearing loss.
Keith: Yeah. It sounds bad choice of words-Well, there's no way around that-it sure sounds like it. You mentioned that you have two wonderful kids and you also live with a partner, while you're going through all of this. You have to explain to your family and your parents who are not in Tucson about all this and I mean, that's another headache. Uh, and so how did you approach coming to terms with not only how you felt but how to brooch it with your kids, with your partner? Who you live with and then your parents, and then making sure everyone who knows you loves you is on the same page.
Kat: Ah, well, I mean, can't say it's been easy. Um, my kids are incredible. They are the best two humans on the planet. Uh, um, I'm so proud of them because they have learned how to say some phrases in sign language and stuff like that. Where I love you is very popular in the Stratford house. Um, so yeah, they've learned how to say a few phrases. Um, there have been days when I've been not having like a full attack, but where I've been like a little dizzy and I call them "swoop D" days. Uh, and on those days they'll help me with the stairs and stuff like that. So that I'm like not at risk for falling, which I did take a pretty bad fall last year. Um, around this time I actually tore the cartilage in my rib cage. So it's been challenging. Um, my parents are dealing with it. It's new. Um, and I think one of the things that happens is everyone winds up getting frustrated with it at some points, like I'll get frustrated because somebody is mumbling. Um, and I'm like, you know I can't hear it speak clearly. And then, uh, on a few occasions, my family has gotten frustrated because, you know, once you've repeated something three times, it's like, Jesus is she even listening and it's like, I'm listening. I'm just deaf. Um, so it's, it's frustrating. It's challenging, but it's been amazing to see how my kids have dealt with it and how compassionate they are and supportive. Honestly, that's the, one of the high points of getting this disease, like becoming disabled and making that transition. I think finding out exactly how awesome my kids are is probably the best part about it.
Keith: So your kids have adapted, dare I say remarkably well. Your parents have struggled with them but they are not in the same state. How has—
Kat: Oh, sorry. My mother did actually move to, uh, Tucson. So she lives here now.
Keith: Oh, okay. Well, uh, thanks for letting me know that. How has your partner adapted to such a big change in his partner. Uh, and I mean for disclosure I know your partner very well and I already know what you're going to say, but I just hear so many horror stories or read about so many relationships breaking down over-I don't want to curse- but to have some so life-altering and this is a new relationship but its a new thing you have to get used… I mean, approaching your kids with this issue is one thing. Without diving too deep into your relationship, which I’m failing at, how was broaching that topic? That can't be easy to do?
Kat: Yep. So, um, so my partner's name is Heath and we actually started dating almost a year ago. Um, we're coming up on our one-year anniversary and I have to say, I never imagined that I would be like merging my life with somebody in the way that I am now. Um, when we first started going out, it was before my Ménière’s had gone into remission. It went into remission for a couple of months over the summer. Um, but before that had happened, I was still like really struggling to hear and like this is at the time that all the restaurants were opening back up and we were like, COVID is over yeah! Um, and so like the beginning of our relationship was actually pretty like fairy tale, because we were going to restaurants with friends and stuff and I couldn't hear, communicate, and so he would act as the go-between and he would like translate what the servers were saying and help me like understand stuff. And he really liked taking care of me in this way, which is great because things haven't gotten better. But yeah, I mean, when it went into remission, I was like, yay. And then when it came back, I was like, is this guy gonna want to stick around for this? Cause it's not cute anymore. Like, when you enter a new relationship, some things can be kind of novel but like, I'm just like thinking this is not cute or novel anymore. It's just so frustrating and sad. And I remember like a few times snapping at him because he like mumbles in the morning or whatever. And, you know, it's just been one of those things where we've had to like grow and learn how to communicate. And he's very, very slowly learning sign language, but he's never once like ever faltered on like staying with a deaf person. And I think that's incredible and it's rare. I think there's a tendency for people to wind up with people who are just so similar to themselves. And so it's really, I feel really grateful that he never flinched.
Keith: Yeah. Yeah, because Like I know the type of man heath is and you know my fondness for him. Despite everything I send you sometimes yeah that's a very important point and one I wanted to get to. Yeah you are absolutely right the novelty wore off and so it's completely natural for you or for anyone to be like is my partner going to stick with me. I mean if you're married-in sickness and in health-then you need to stick around because you just swore before god and everyone we knew. But when you are just dating there is not that. But I mean that's an incredible realization to come to and to know how lucky you are. Because not everyone, unfortunately, is that lucky. Shifting to you decided to run very recently for the State House. What was that decision in relating to your new hearing?
Kat: It was a difficult decision because on the one hand it was. Campaigning means spending a lot of time talking to people and talking on the phone. Um, and so the entire thing presented an enormous challenge. Once I got hearing aids, I decided that I was going to stick with the choice to run for office. And I'm looking at this as an opportunity to represent people who have never been represented in the Arizona legislature before-there's not currently an openly hard of hearing or deaf lawmaker in the state of Arizona, there has never been an openly deaf or hard of hearing lawmaker in the state of Arizona. Um, so I'm going to be very excited to introduce that kind of historic first. Um, but there was some back and forth when with redistricting and everything, I was worried that I might not have a very good chance of winning. And because of that, I had texted my mom at one point and said, I might not run. And my family is very supportive of my choices, but they, they definitely never imagined I would ever run for office. I never imagined I would run for office. So when I texted my mom that I was maybe not going to run, she texted me back and said, well, that's good it'll give you a chance to get used to your hearing aids.
And I thought to myself in four years, when the opportunity to run again presents itself, or I'm sorry, in two years, uh, when the opportunity presents itself, I'll be deaf. Like there's, there's realistically, there's no way to predict how my hearing loss will go. But if the pattern that has been holding continues to hold, I will be deaf. And then I will really have a challenge because the hearing aids will not help me connect to people. Um, and so because of that, I said, okay, let's do this, let's do this now while I still have some hearing. And let's take on the opportunity to represent people who have not been represented before. There's also never been a parent of a trans child in the house. Actually, I don't think at any level of government. So, and there's so much anti-trans legislation right now that I just thought it's now or never it's we got to fix this. Pardon-My French. We've got to fix this shit for the next generation.
Keith: Yeah. And so you are very outspoken in that you were in an abusive marriage, uh, your, the survivor of sexual and domestic assault. You gave me permission to talk about that beforehand, which was very, uh, very moving to be because I always like to be as mindful about other people’s paths and especially young women. So backtrack, because your website which I have looked at several times and it's-I've told you this before it-has a very welcoming and confident presence, but you don't shy away from your past. I do not at all want to say its like badge of honor, because it's not. Nor should it be, but your owning it. So tell me about that situation and how it shaped your advocacy for LGBTQ rights with your children and women’s rights. And now, because of your hearing, deaf culture, and deaf rights. Those are three different things. Three very different things. But I would be lying if I didn’t try to connect all of them even in a loose way. Because they all inform who you are as an advocate.
Kat: Well, so this is a great question, and I'm so glad that you asked. Um, and yes, by the way, I always am happy to talk about this because I really believe that when we talk about issues like this-that are sometimes hard to talk about, and they're really personal and they are sometimes accompanied by feelings of shame. And I want people to know that this problem is not uncommon and this problem is okay to talk about. Um, so I, like I said, met my husband when I was 20, 20 year olds make fantastic decisions. And so I made the fantastic decision that I was going to drop out of college and be with this person. And I quickly found myself pregnant. Um, and because of that, I had to get married in order to get insurance. And I found myself trapped. As soon as the ring was on my finger. Things hadn't been ideal before, far from it, like there was already abuse present. So it wasn't surprising when it continued, but as soon as I became married and I didn't have a job and I was now stuck here with this baby, I found that the abuse was much more extreme. Um, and I'm not going to go into too many details just because I am aware that there's a possibility that my children will at some point discover this kind of stuff.
And I don't want to damage their relationship with their dad.
Keith: Very fair point and very sensitive.
Kat: Thank you. Um, so I wound up getting pregnant almost immediately after having my first child. So the kids are back to back they're one year apart. I mean, they were beautiful, beautiful babies. And I went through so much to try and keep them safe and protect them and hide what was happening from them. So when in 2012, I wound up suffering a miscarriage on Christmas day and on this day, my ex-husband would not come home. He was working and he didn't want to be bothered with us. And he had the only car. And it was at that point that I had decided I'm going to get a job and I'm going to start saving. And I am going, I don't care how I have to do what I'm doing this. And it took me a couple of years to actually save up and start planning and, you know, You'll find this a lot. Anytime you talk to somebody who was abused, I get asked sometimes when was the moment that you knew you needed to leave?
And the truth is, is that the moment happened over and over and over and over and over again. Um, and cause abuse is cyclical and that's how that works. Um, and it's, it's very isolating because people do not want to witness you, go back to your abuser over and over again. So it will cost you friendships. It will cost you a lot. But so in 2014, I had gotten some savings together. It was really difficult because I was having to pay for childcare as well. Um, that one was all on me. And so I, so I remember that my husband and I were having some kind of disagreement in the kitchen where we lived and it had started to escalate into an argument.
And my oldest child got in front of me and said, don't hurt mommy. And that, if there is a moment when I decided something, it was in that moment, because at this point I knew that the kids knew what was happening the whole time. And there, there were no secrets in that house. And so I knew I needed to leave. I needed to show my kids what to do when somebody, you love hurts you, you leave. Yeah. And the next month I was gone and we moved out in August of 2014, Wow.
Keith: Well, thank you for sharing all of that. So how is it co-parenting? You just said people don't like people to go back to their abuser, particularly again and again, but it's very difficult when you have children and you had shared custody. Without probing too deep into that dynamic, I mean I’m trying to imagine it. I can’t imagine it cuz I’m not strong enough like you certainly are Kat. So tell me for the sake of your kids, which it the most important thing, how do you put aside the memories of the abuse? You have two beautiful kids and it takes two to tango so how have you managed to navigate that extremely difficult situation?
Kat: Thank you. Um, and like I said, I don't mind going down memory lane on these issues again, because I want to normalize it. And also, these memories are my life. This is, they live with me every day. So, you know, you can't undo, what's been done. You just have to try and make sense of it as best as you can. So with the kids, it's definitely been difficult. Um, there, there was a situation a couple of years ago when my ex-husband actually lost custody temporarily. Um, and he had to take several courses and parenting classes to gain custody back and up until this point, things were stickier. Um, there was a period when I first left, where he was still controlling a lot of the parenting time and setting the schedule. And it wasn't until I found an attorney who would help me file for divorce that he was forced to back down on a lot of that stuff. Um, and we wound up going to court several times. That's actually, you mentioned that my caller ID didn't match my name. That is why. Because we spent so much time in court I had selected a pseudonym to kind of be invisible on the internet during that period because it was a very scary time. And because it took years, uh, by the time it was over, everyone thought that the pseudonym that I'd been using was my real name. And because when you get divorced, you can change your name to anything you want. I just decided to go ahead and make that switch. Um, but it was, it was a really difficult process. One thing that I've been very committed to during that whole time is I've never given the kids any details about the abuse. When they reported that there was something similar going on at home, I let them know that that's an experience that I had as well without giving any details. And that was tricky because they absolutely did want to know. Um, and they still occasionally ask. And I'm just very firm on, these are things that you don't need to know. Um, they're very personal to me and I also don't want the kids to ever feel like this person who had given them half of their DNA is, is a truly bad guy. And I feel like if they knew some of those details, it would be really hard to change that image. Um, so he has, fortunately, he seems to be very much rehabilitated and I've watched him use tools from parenting classes with the kids. Um, my youngest daughter actually is a little bit special needs probably largely due to those factors, but he's dealt with her differently in recent years than he used to. Um, and we also have. Uh, court documents saying that there's no corporal punishment allowed in either home. Um, and so like just things like that have helped. The kids both completed a very lengthy therapy program with JFCS, which I will never stop praising JFCS for best. They have a free trauma-based therapy program.
Keith: What is JFCS?
Kat: JFCS is Jewish family and children's services. Um, and they came into our lives through DCS, which is the department of child safety. Um, colloquial colloquially known as, uh, DC or I'm sorry, CPS child protective services. They're now called DCS. Um, and so when we were going through a massive crisis, uh, related to domestic violence. DCS brought in a caseworker from JFCS to help and they set us up with this, this program. That's very unique. Um, it's an in-home program. And so a therapist and a case worker would come to the house three times a week and work with me and work with the kids and just talk to them. And they gave us tools to kind of rebuild after an extremely traumatizing event. Um, and we'll, we'll be forever grateful for that.
So just stuff like that was all vital. It took me advocating really hard all the time for my kids and their safety. But because of going through all that, um, my ex-husband has gone through these rehab programs and has, you know, developed the tools to be a really good parent. And it seems like he's really changed and that's great. And so I just continued to like work with the kids, be there for them, believe them when they tell me that something's wrong. And, um, I just don't speak poorly of their father or his family. Um, And I guess that's, that's pretty much it. that's, that's my philosophy. It's, it's really hard because you know, you have to see this person. I see this person probably twice a week. We talk either on the phone or via text like a few days a week. Um, so it's really, it's really challenging because at that point you're inviting somebody who has hurt you into your spaces. And that can be, that can be really traumatizing for a lot of people. And I, I don't know how I've really learned to cope with that. It's like, I've kind of like tucked that into a compartment or something. And I just don't think about it when, when I have to interact with him.
Keith: Well, I thank you for sharing so much of your past trauma and figuring it out with your kids and figuring out how to co-parent them. I'm grateful not only that you shared so much but that your ex-husband seemed to get the rehab and it's excelling at least somewhat because so many guys don't excel at that at all and that's heartbreaking. So you mentioned that you are, right now, hard of hearing, but there will be a time where you will be completely deaf and you’ve already parented two wonderful kids. But you're shifting from parenting them as a hard-of-hearing individual to, a few years from now, a possibly deaf person. But there is no manual that you were given, there was no manual my parents were given and they had to raise a disabled son and so- shifting gears from co-parenting to radically changing how you parent your own kids and how you adapt to your partner and how he adapts to you. From now as a hard-of-hearing individual to eventually a completely deaf individual, have you thought about that and how to prepare those around you?
Kat: So I guess I have to say. The biggest credit to me. And the thing that like warms my heart so much is that my kids advocate for me constantly. If I take them to the grocery store and I can't understand the cashier they'll speak up on my behalf and say, she's hard of hearing. Can you speak up? They'll, they'll tell the cashier that like, they stick up for me in these situations. And it is, uh, I don't like to toot my own horn, but dang either I got really lucky here or I did something really, really right. And I, I would guess it's probably a little bit of both, but like, they're just such amazing kids. Um, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm gushing about my kids a lot.
Keith: No, please do! I mean, that's where I wanted to get to. It’s different from parenting, co-parenting, with an ex-partner and even if that marriage wasn’t abusive, it's co-parenting with another partner when you are-first your hearing is completely fine and then you become hard of hearing-then eventually you become completely deaf. So all of those modalities, not sure if that's the right word but we will go with that, I want to understand the psychology of progressing all of those different styles
Kat: Well, it's definitely, I mean, it's a challenge, to say the least. I went from being an abled person to being pretty significantly disabled. There are days now when I can't drive, there are days when I can barely walk. Um, and so all of it is a huge, huge challenge. Learning how to communicate in sign language and learning how to communicate with hearing people is a challenge. But like one thing that I do know is that, ONE deaf people do this every single day and I am nothing new. Um, and two, moms make it work. Moms just make it work. And I mean, I've been a single mom for, oh gosh, seven, seven and a half years now. And if there's one thing that I've had to do a lot is like make impossible situations possible and so it's intimidating and scary and I'm not gonna lie, I miss being able to hear my kids' voices, and I miss music and stuff like that. But mom's just make it work and that's what we're going to keep doing.
Keith: And that's a beautiful point to really wrap up on because that's a big part of your campaign webpage identity. I texted you, absolutely, moms do make it work. The reason why I really responded to you, particularly when I heard that you were going to become deaf and this is very very selfish of me. But you learn about it in the first episode, is because I’ve always wanted an excuse to relearn American Sign Language. Why is that? Because that was the language that I originally learned for the first seven years of my life-
Kat: I didn’t know that!
Keith: My voice did not come in and so when-and this is the only sign I remember from my original language and that is why I gravitated to this is a great reason to pick up an old language, an old friend of mine But I have respect for you, I officially met you a few months ago, we have been Facebook friends for years but it feels like we have known each other a lot longer. You are very approachable and I’m sure when I met your kids, I’ll be like I know where you get the best parts of you from. And you partner, I just adore despite-
Kat: Despite our jokes haha!
Keith: Yeah we joke a lot, but I always want to make you laugh. Particularly now, during a global pandemic, we all need to laugh a little more. So the last question I want to end on is, and this probably should have come up earlier, in transitioning to becoming fully deaf, are you in the process of learning ASL?
Kat: Yes, actually, I have an, and really excited to share that with you. I have been working on fully immersing myself in deaf culture. I'm actually planning on going to a deaf night out tonight at the box yard. And I'm really excited because immersion is absolutely the best way to learn. And so I'm still learning. It takes, it's just a completely different language than English. So, but it's such a beautiful language and I am excited to be learning it and excited to be talking with so many deaf people and learning about the culture and just learning different signs. I just learned a new one the other day, and this is rhythm.
I am fully like getting into the deaf culture. I'm actually heading up to the state Capitol on Monday as the guest of Jennifer Longdon, who is, um, the house minority leader on the state level. And she is of course, as you know, in a wheelchair which was something that she wasn't born with either. She, this, this was something that happened very suddenly to her. She's inviting three deaf and hard of hearing individuals to join her at the state Capitol, where they will be giving the pledge of allegiance in sign language. And, then we're going to be taking tours of, uh, some, some facilities designed for deaf people, as well as Ability 360, which is an organization that helps individuals with disability.
Keith: Nice I interviewed Jennifer on the second episode of this podcast. Uh, if I may, I end with a special shoutout to your partner, Heath, learn sign language its now her main love language. Just learn it its not that hard. But I am so grateful that you wanted to come on the podcast and be as open and frank as you have been. I feel like I have known you my entire life. I really hope you will come back each season because just talking to you is very cathartic. I enjoy hanging out with your family and you have every right to brag and gush about your kids. Because every parent should but particularly yours. They have lucked out beyond what is fair beyond mother nature. And have a wonderful time tonight in immersing yourself in the deaf culture and have a wonderful time! I feel like I've known you my entire life. And like, I keep reminding you, you are going to go far I don't care how long it takes you. I am always a fan of yours. I’m very humbled that you would come on and share so much of yourself with me and with the listeners of this podcast.
Kat: Of course, thank you so much for having me and I can't wait to come back. So thank you so much. You are my very good friend. Bye.
Keith: You have been listening to Disability Empowerment Now. I would like to thank my guest today and you, the listener. More information about the podcast can be found on disabilityempowermentnow.com. The podcast is available wherever you listen to podcasts or on the official website. This episode of Disability Empowerment Now is copyrighted 2022.
