[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to Disability Empowerment now, season four. I'm your host, Keith Mavidi. Ginsini. Today I'm talking to my old friend Sean Daniels, who is the director of the recovery project and the playwright of the Brilliant Prey, the White Chip. Sean, welcome to the show.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Oh, well, thank you so much. And you are correct. I have known you for years and years, and so it is a. An honor to be on your show. And I'm such a fan of all the work that you do, so happy to support in any way.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Thank you. So we met when I was on the board of the Arizona Theater Company and you had been hired as the artistic director. Vince was back in. In 1718, somewhere around there in the.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: In the before times, as we call it. Everything.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah, big seeds now. Before COVID.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. That's our new.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: It is hard to remember those times, but I'm the friends that have stuck with us.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's amazing how much life has changed in almost every way.
I left the Arizona Theater Company board soon after you left.
That was a pure coincidence.
I remember we met in person when my parents and I saw your brilliant autobiographical play, the White Chap, which I could rave and rave about for. For the next five hours easily.
I'm sure your wife would get pitched dead me for keeping you for that long.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Oh, I. I so appreciate it. And you all came and saw it in New York, which meant so much to me to get that, you know, when the. When the show was there, to get, you know, people that flew out to see it and to support it, you know, it was a. It was a great moment and really just the beginning of the show's journey at the time.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And so let's start there talking about the inspiration and the geniuses and the nerves that went into writing, to conceptualizing, auto autobiographical, walk the boards. No punches whatsoever. Pardon the language, but that's how brilliant and how unflinching the play is.
Take me back to the moment, a moment you felt that my story your destroy your life. And the whole experience you had with alcohol.
How did all that become a play?
[00:04:40] Speaker A: So it's a great question and I appreciate you asking. You know, I'd worked in theater my whole life, so I think part of me, when I wanted to figure out how to get this out there, thought like, okay, I'll start with theater. You know, I'll start with the art form that I love and the art form that I truly believe can, you know, create a place where people's Hearts and minds can be changed by something.
I, when I was trying to get sober. And actually there's a monologue in the show that I wrote literally in rehab on like day five because I was just struggling and didn't know what to do. And I thought like, writing would be a good exercise and for the most part it stayed pretty much the, the same. It's, you know, after so many productions and so many workshops, actually this one monologue is pretty consistent.
But I couldn't find anything that was funny. I couldn't find anything that had talked about science. I couldn't find anything that wasn't in like 1920s old timey American Ohio language. And so at some point you just have to say like, well then shut up and write the thing that you can't find. Try to figure out how do you put it out there. And you know, I really thought I was the only person in the American theater that couldn't hold their liquor. I thought everybody else was having a great, great time and I was falling apart. And then afterwards so many people came up and they were like, oh my God, I'm so glad that you're sober. Just so you know, I've been sober for seven years. And you were like, oh my God, that's great. But like, where the f were you this entire time? Why in supposedly the most empathetic community based, dripping with liberals industry, can we not talk about the actual issues that are going on?
[00:06:27] Speaker B: I love how you described dripping with.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: Well, I just, you know, I love that you think this would be the safest place. And yet we've all. And you know, listen, this is not anything about the theater industry. This has become part of the larger project that the stigma around addiction is, is intense and is concrete. And it, you know, we're not represented properly in pop culture or. And you know, people get nervous that you aren't going to be able to do your job regardless of how many years of sobriety you have. So there's a reason why back in the 1920s when Alcoholics Anonymous started that they said like, and don't tell anybody. And everybody said like, yeah, great, we'll not tell anybody. And so, you know, I think it made sense then. But I do also feel that, you know, people always say you're only as sick as your secrets. And I feel like we have an entire industry with which inside it people are struggling and afraid to talk about it. And honestly, where now that I work, you know, in the recovery project, we spend a lot of time talking about other industries. It Is not specific to just the arts, though it's pretty rampant in the arts. It's worse in, you know, other things like construction. You know, you see that there is rampant misuse and. Well, and everything. Right. That we now know one in three people live in a house that is affected by addiction and 60 million people are living in recovery. So that's, you know, if there's three people listening to this, one of you has to deal with it. And you know, it's so funny that you say the nerves about putting up the show because. So the show is about my own personal journey and about.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Let me, let me clarify the nerves, the creative nerves of not. Why did you put up this show? Because I have nothing but the deepest respect for you for putting up the show. But in seeing it and I'm sure in reading it, it's so unflinching and so brutally honest that as a creative, we're both creative people talking about a harrowing experience that really had formed your entire adult and professional life.
I can only imagine the, the creative jitters. Nerves of my being too personal.
Will people actually like this? Were they related?
Of course, now we know they very much. Well, but when you're at the computer staring at a blank word document, you, you don't know that you have all these hopes and fears, but you don't know. And so yeah, I wanted to clarify. Not that I would say the nerve of you for putting this ruined rep taking work of art on stage. Damn you.
It's like I'm trying to go back to the writing room and did you have to really with your inner gut demons and your inner doubts and fears, putting them all on the page?
[00:10:55] Speaker A: You know, I, it was. I was lucky in that I created a. Co. Created a show called the lion that Benjamin Scheuer wrote and performed in. And one of the mottos that we had in putting it together. And this is when you're the director, right. So you have like nothing but great ideas and how other people should write their shows.
But the thing that we said was. And this piece of advice was given to him and we latched onto it. If you want to write a good song, write something that you don't want the audience to know about you. And if you want to write that.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Brilliant piece of advice.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And if you want to write a great song, write something that you don't want to know about yourself.
And so, so. And that was really the rules that we lived by in terms of doing it. And so when it came time to write the White Chip. It was like, I need to hold myself to the same standards because I'd also seen it worked. And, you know, the. The. The white. The lion can't be stopped. It just got announced that it's gonna do an Asian tour and launch out of Tokyo in.
Yeah, so we're excited to go do that, but.
So I had to hold myself to the same standard, which is like, if we're going to talk about this, then we need to really talk about it. And my favorite book about addiction, which is slightly controversial, is a book called the Night of the Gun by David Carr. And it is.
He is.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: What an interesting title.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, it's a. It's. It's. It's about a. A night that, like, some people remember him having a gun and some people don't. And so he investigates his own life because he's an investigative reporter for the New York Times. But he is so unflinching about himself that the. The reason that I love it is that because I feel like what he's describing is the real thing, and we could sanitize it so that it could be popular. And, you know, like, you know, at one point, he.
You know, he. He does many regrettable things, which there's not a single person that struggles with addiction that doesn't come out with that on the other end of it. Except that, you know, the. What we are taught in pop culture that addiction is. Is like Luke Perry stumbles out of the woods and he's got two tiny bottles and he gets some help, and it's like the lightest of addiction anywhere, as opposed to what really happens, which is what we call the wreckage of our past, which is that it's over and over again. So I wanted to. Between Benjamin and Between reading David Carr's book, like, how to hold myself to the same standard of, if we're going to investigate it, how to really dive in. But I didn't mind that you said the nerve to put it on, because I will tell you, every single performance of it from the very beginning at Merrimack rep to our opening, where we had our producers Hank Azaria and Jason Biggs and John Larroquette there before the show names again.
So the producers when we did it recently were. It was Annaleigh Ashford. It was our lead producer. It was Hank Azaria, who's an amazing, you know, voice actor. John Larroquette, Jason Biggs. And at that performance was big.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Big names.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah, big names. But. But even then, before every performance, part of me goes like, oh, my God, when They watch this show, they're going to find out like even though I have written it, I have gone to great lengths to get it produced. Millions of dollars have been raised, like marketing teams have been hired. There's a part of me that goes like, oh my God, you have to get out of there because after this show happens, they're gonna know.
And that shows like. So when we talk about stigma and we talk about like the things self stigma is such a huge part of it. Right? Because even on our own level we are nervous to tell people. We try to lighten what it is. We don't want to come forward. And you know, we look at other diseases which I hope that no one ever gets cancer. But if you do get cancer, what you will do will be different from when you discover that you have substance use condition, which is that when you have cancer, like you will tell people, you will go tell your work, people will run marathons for you, you will go into work and they'll come up with a work plan on how you can reduce yourself to be able to take the time to get better. Your family will rally around you and people that have gone through it before will instantly reach out and be a resource for you. And that's amazing. And I just want that, I want that for the addiction world. I want you to be able to say this has been considered a medical disorder, a brain disorder since the late 70s and I now struggling with it. And, and people in the community can come forward and figure out how to help. Your workplace can figure out how to help. There was a. I'm getting off subject, but there was a great statistic recently that 65% of people that overdose were employed. Which means that those people were at work, somebody saw them, they were going into the office. Which means that, you know, these aren't bums owned or overpasses that are dying. These are the people amongst us.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: One more, one more quick fact. Overdosing and dying by overdose is the number one killer of people 18 to 45. So you and I, if. Well, I'm not, I'm not in that group of people because I'm a little old. But if you are between 18 and 45, you are more likely to die of an overdose than you are cancer, car accident, guns, Covid. Any of the things that we spend are our political capital talking about.
And also, you know, 18 to 45, like that's. I'm not an expert on workforces, but that's kind of the workforce of our country.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: You can begin the prime Time.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: That is the time. Yeah.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: So anyway, it's it, it's that. It. That's what's emboldens me to continue to do this work and to put it out there. And even though I'm terrified that everyone's gonna find out that, like, that's where the nerve comes from to be able to say, like, I, I, you know, oh my God, they're going to find out. But, you know, when we did the white chip in New York as last time, after every performance, somebody came forward and said, okay, I'm ready to get help. And our, our, our poor actors are, are just, of course, like, ill equipped to be able to deal with that. They're not like, they're not like trained medical professionals or peer counselors. Like, they're just great actors. And so they were. And they were like, I'm going to get you a house manager or something, you know, so our producers were really great. They put together like 12 QR codes for people to be able to check in and get the help that they need, you know, based on what it is, whether it's whatever different group you're looking for. And after every single performance, somebody came forward and said that they're ready to get help. And so I feel like that's what, that's where the nerve comes from. Even though I'll admit it's terrifying, it's terrifying every time that the show goes up because part of me is, is always ashamed of what I went through.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: So what would you like having big names attached to it that wanted to invest in it, not to mention the brilliant actors who performed it Night have denied. But what would you like having people, people you now know say, yes, this project is very worthwhile. I want to put time, energy, effort and money into it. And I want to support you getting your message out there. What would that like?
[00:19:10] Speaker A: You know, so one of the stories that we've just begun to talk about is that Matthew Perry was supposed to be one of producers on our show. And so on the day that we got. Actually, it was a year ago yesterday when we got the news that he was going to be a part of it. You know, it put us through the roof. And then he passed away a couple days.
[00:19:32] Speaker B: I, I can imagine how that would put anyone through the roof.
Oh, my.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. And then, and then he passed away several days later.
And then right after that, you know, Hank Azaria came forward and said, like, okay, I'll add my name and be a part of it. And so it's a Real roller coaster. Because to change national narratives, you need the public, and you need the private, and you need pop culture, right? And so those are the three areas that you need to be doing. And so it really felt like, okay, we have a chance to really change this conversation by these people adding their name to it. Coming to opening night, Hank created a very sweet video about it.
And so I. You know, let's be honest. We. We knew that as they came forward, it was going to help more people to see it. And so when our goal is for less people to die, you know, adding them on to it. And you know what I love about. And we just honored Hank, his area, and I'm so grateful to. To do it, because I feel like, honestly, that's what the movement needs. Like, I'm happy to. To, like, tell everybody in the world my recovery story, but we need celebrities. We need millionaires. We need titans of industry that are sober to come forward. And for people to know, like, not only is it possible, but, you know, when we say that, like, what does that mean? But, you know, it's like, does it just mean that, like, things were awful and now they'll be a little less worse? No. We need to show people who are not only recovered but have thrived since then. There's a term called post traumatic growth, which is to say, like, how not only did you survive?
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Say that term again.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: I love it. It's new. I work with professor of Stigma, Dr. Kasilik down here at USF, and she talks about post traumatic growth, which is to say that not only did you survive something, but, like, how is it that your life is improved because of the trauma that you encountered? Like, how is it that because of it, you're able to do things that you couldn't do before? And it reframes the conversation away from just who survived what, but, like, how did the things that you survive allow you to be able to do things that you couldn't do before? Right? And so, like, that's the conversation. And let's be honest, celebrity in our country, we know, plays a huge amount, you know, yeah, gonna sing with Kamala. And so it's like, that's news, you know, because that's. That's a little sexier than, like, economic experts talking about, like, you know, like, what her plan is gonna be, even though.
Even though it doesn't have anything to do with us. So, you know, I'm. I'm grateful for the celebrities to come forward. I'm grateful for Jason Biggs to sit right behind me. Opening night, you know, and talk about his sobriety.
And I'm grateful for like, all the different celebrities that came to the run of the show. And so I just think like, that that's, that's, that that's, that's part of the work that has to happen, which is that, like, you need to know that the per. That your friends are in recovery. And you also need to know that people you admire as celebrities are in recovery. And that's how we change the national narrative.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Wow.
I mean, that's incredible.
And everything you just said, it's so on the money.
What would you like leaving the El Jonah Theatre Company and coming to the recovery project across the country and the work you're currently doing?
[00:23:43] Speaker A: I mean, I guess I will say we, we loved our time in Arizona. We, we miss it every day. We loved the staff that was put together. You know, now they're kind of scattered to the world, but we loved working with them every day and we loved the audiences down there that were a part of it.
The opportunity to, you know, figure out how to take the experiences that we've had and be able to use this art form.
You know, it became clear at one point, like, what do you want to dedicate your life to? What do you want to spend the next year?
Is it slightly getting people to accept, you know, different types of art form or different types of stories? Or is it the fact that we talk about post traumatic growth that, you know, like someone dies from addiction in our country every three minutes? Right? So by the time that this interview will be done, right, we will have lost 10 to 20 people. And for all of us that have ever lost anybody, you know, that one person is not like, that's not one person, right? That's a family that is for.
Ruptured and changed. And so they imagine, okay, so by the end of this conversation, 20 families will be forever changed.
And so the opportunity to get, to try to focus not on, you know, moving a needle slightly, but to be able to focus on changing lives has been an honor of a lifetime. To be able to do and to be able to focus on that and, you know, you know, I have no doubt we talk about it all the time. At some point, we will get back to running a theater. At some point we're excited to get back to running a theater. But I will say it is working in this part will only make running a theater that much better. Because, you know, in theater we talk all the time about being like community leaders and yeah, we, we, we, we mean it but we also mean it in the sense of, like. And then you come see a play. You know what I mean? Like, which, if you don't want to do, I don't know what it is. And so right now, you know, we spend a lot of time working with faith leaders, and we spend a lot of time working with first responders, and we spend a lot of time working with police.
And right now, we're setting up our time working with veterans. And just. So it's like, oh, actually, when you work in the health and human services industry, like, you gotta be a community leader. You gotta really meet people where they're at. It's not about getting them into your building to see your play, but it's about, like, okay, how do we get naloxone into the hands of police officers so that they. When they encounter someone having an overdose, that they can do it, they can figure out how to revive them. You need to get faith leaders to be preaching about what it is that the steps can be taken so that people don't overdose in their congregation when they're away from them. Like, it's a different level of community involvement that I Never, in my 30 years of working in theater, have never seen, have never been asked to do that type of community duty. And now I do it every day. You know, now I spend forever directly in our community meeting people where they are, and that is the honor of a lifetime. And so we will get back to running a theater, I have no doubt, at some point. But right now, it feels like we're making a difference. And so we want to. To ride this as long as we can.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: So talk more about everything that the Recovery Project does, the main initiatives and what it takes to get those main initiatives off the ground.
[00:27:24] Speaker A: So the main thing that the Recovery Project tries to do is to. Excuse me. Is to use the arts to change the narratives of addiction. There's a lot of studies about how national narratives change, and in all of them, the arts are the answer. There was a great study that came out about gay marriage and how, you know, when Barack Obama ran for president, he was against gay marriage. Now you can't say what he said in Florida and run for city council as a Democrat. Right. So, like, national narratives have changed. Most likely.
No. Most likely, Florida will legalize marijuana in two weeks because Arizona did a couple years ago. Like, that's a sentence that wouldn't even make sense 10 years ago. You would never believe it.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, you're absolutely right about that.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: So to be able to be a part of how those narratives change. And the answer was the arts, right? The answer was, this is what the study said. That when, you know, how do we feel something different than we felt 20 years ago? It really was that TV happened. Ellen came out, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, Angels in America happened, and Normal Hart played at the public, and Larry Kramer stood out front and handed out flyers to every person that was leaving. Until Reagan would talk about the gay cancer that really, that Magic Johnson got hiv. And we all thought he was going to be dead within days. And he's currently a billionaire in better shape than any of us. And that is a long time ago. So. So, like, those events happen as we look back and you realize, like, oh, that changed the narratives, right? Like anybody you know, you used to only see LGBT plus characters in terms of their trauma in popular culture and then as, like a wacky best friend and then as, you know, maybe a lead character in a. In a movie that is just for them. And now you can exist and your sexuality doesn't have to be a defining characteristic of why you exist within a pop culture story, right? But in addiction, if someone in recovery shows up, I promise you, they will overdose or relapse at the end of season one. Right? We only exist in terms of. To be threats for the other people that are in it.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: And so I wish with all my heart I could say you're wrong. We both know you are not wrong.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: I'm currently watching a TV show in season one where someone's in recovery. So I'll let you know if, when I get to the end of it, if it changes. But so it's like those. Those narratives still exist, right? And so we have to move the needle, and we. And I think we can do that through the art. So I want to support artists. You know, I want to figure out how to get artists the help that they need.
And then I also want to use artists to change national narrative. So it's commissioning plays, creating animated shorts, creating a warm line for artists to be able to call into to make sure that we just announced an initiative with the Clinton foundation to put naloxone in every Broadway house so that audiences and backstage people have access to what is essentially a life saving drug if you ever need it.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: Wow.
And, Joe, what did it take for the recovery project to effectively do the vital and life saving work that it does?
[00:31:02] Speaker A: It takes money, as always, but we have been lucky to be incubated by a couple different organizations as we got going. We started at Florida Studio Theater. Then we move to an organization called Live Tampa Bay. And then we'll. We'll see what the future holds.
But, you know, right now, the main thing that it takes is community partners. That is our big. So if anyone's listening to this and they feel like it's a good fit for how they could be, that is the main thing that we're looking for. You know, money exists in health and human services. It's a different amount of money than you see in the arts.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: And being able to get it is great, but we got to figure out, like, then how. How to. How to put the ground troops together to be able to really make sure that we're in the right places so that people can get the resources that they need. So we're always looking for community partners. That is our. Our big push at this point.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: So you seem really, really happy in what you're doing.
I hope that comes through loud and clear in the.
How does that feel? Does it make the.
In your mind, does it make the hollowing experience somehow worth it to know that you're at this point, not only in your personal life, but that you are doing what your.
And I don't know why I'm getting emotional here. That came on really quickly.
Don't really get emotional on air.
Sorry about that.
I shouldn't apologize for that.
Does it make what you're doing now, which feels and sounds like your life's calling, does it make what you went through and the shame and the guilt of going through it and what you unflinchingly put your family through, and the only way I know that is the white chip again.
Can't stop getting emotional over that play. Judge where you are now.
Normally, I would say, does it all make sense?
But judge the trauma that you went through then and where it led you now, Shame and guilt, knowing that you got through it and that you're living a better life and are doing the vital work that is literally life saving.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: You know, I. I so appreciate that. And it made me emotional to hear you get emotional of it. And I need that reminder on a daily basis because when you say it like that.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: I believe you have my number. I'll get you the new one after the show.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: I hope you wipe Diligent mind.
The reason why I'd say that it's you and your wife, really, you and your family are so adorable. In every picture I see, in every pose I read, there's so much love in your family. And so that is why I bring them up because it's so. That's such a vital part of recovery from anything, but I interrupted you.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: No, I. No, no, no, please, keep going. You know.
You know, we often talk in, like, sweeping terms about the work that it. And what's. What's. Anybody that does any work knows that, like, day in, day out, it's not that, you know, you have to be reminded of what it is. Like, some days are better than others. Most days are worse than. Than those, you know, and so it's. It's.
You have to remind yourself why. I mean, you know, like, we. We moved it. Like, it was hard to move.
You know, we had to switch schools for my daughter. You know, I mean, it's like there. There's so much sacrifice that everybody has to make to be able to follow a dream like this. And, you know, we. We kind of talk about it in terms of, like. And then we just walked into Florida and changed the world. And it's like, no, it was hard at every. At every turn, and it continues to be hard. And, you know, we don't have the friends or support that we had in Arizona here. And, you know, we. We miss so much about Tucson also. And so, you know, it's. It's hard. It's nice to be reminded about the big picture because, like, at the end of the. We would all say. Everybody would say, like, oh, my God, if we touch one child in the audience today, it's worth it. If we change one life and I get to work in a field where, like, people are still alive because of the work that we do. And people reach out and say, like, you know, at the very first preview of the White Ship, someone came forward and said, like, I'm an alcoholic, but I'm not sober right now. And so Joe Tapper, our amazing performer, said, like, okay, here's some re. I'm. You know, here's my phone number. I want you to stay in contact with me. And 14 days in, they reached out to say, like, I have 14 days. And so thank you so much. And so to get to be a part of work like that and to be able to. To make art like that, you know, when I was 22, I started a theater company called Dad's Garage in Atlanta, and they're still running today. But I did it because we all thought the most punk rock thing in the world.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Hold on.
Please tell me how you came up with the name of that theater company so that.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: It's like a lot of stories about the name in the Little Rascals. They have an episode where they put on a show and they call it Dad's Garage. And so we stole that name from them.
But we started, you know, we were all 22. We started it. It was not a great business plan, you know, but we. We.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: It's still running somehow. Still running.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And so you.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: And they must have done something right to continue on to this day.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
But, you know, we. We thought it was the most punk rock thing in the world to do theater. We were going to change the world by making plays. And, you know, along the way, I think that was true. We were 22. And then along the way, you spend time being like, okay, well, let's make sure that subscribers can still have their seats from last year. And let's, you know, oh, oh, we got the board member that hates women. So let's make sure that we make sure that she isn't, you know, who's she upset with this month? And, you know, oh, too much. You know, too many this and that. And. And so you lose that original impulse along the way. And I will say, getting into the recovery project, commissioning playwrights, figuring out that starts to have that punk rock feeling again of like, we. We actually may. We actually may save the world by doing theater. And it's nice to get back in touch with that. And so I'm so inspired by even just hearing you talk about it. I feel grateful for you talking about it because it reminds me on, you know, even after this, when I have to go make some Excel sheets and, you know, turn them in, it's like, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna run out and save the world. I'm gonna do some paperwork because it's the end of the week and we gotta get it in. So it's nice to be reminded of the. The big picture.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And it. It's like, with changing, like, I'm very heartened to hear that he's his sobriety story, and I haven't heard it. And he's an actor, among other things. And the franchise that. The movie franchise that we know him bats by is, of course, American Pie. And there's no shortage of drinks, drugs.
And that contrast is very revealing. Revealing and very illuminating to what you guys do and how sobriety almost had to be like, in a weird sense, Double Seven undercover.
And I mean, Double Seven isn't sober anytime in his life, I bet.
Fictional character. But, yeah, it's really interesting that recovery had to be undercover. And some can be out there more readily, but a lot can't and so how do you balance that? Is it all about the shame and guilt that recovering addicts have? And we can even unpack the word and the addict, but it's the stigma all about the mistake and the shame and guilt attached to that mistake in the destruction nature and how that mistake of mistakes have touched other people's lives. Why do you think people are so, so uncomfortable about the vulnerability of recovery? And why do they relying feel more comfortable stigmatizing the bravery of recovery from your vices?
[00:43:49] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, we just did a project, an anti stigma project in the Tampa Bay area. And then we had USF as our research partner work with us afterwards to see how effective the work that we did is. And what we found is that we were able to lower stigma on almost every level. But also what we found is that stigma is significant and it's in lots of different ways. And so, and from self stigma to institutional stigma, which, which is like, you know, how if you want to get sober, like what are the rules that are in your way or you know, people go to rehab for 28 days. Not because that is a scientific number, that is because that is what insurance will pay for you to go away. So that, so like that's not even like scientific based. That's just the average insurance will pay for you to go away for 28 days. And so like that's, that's institutional issues and stigma to say like, oh my God, if you need more than that, you must really be in trouble. So I think the stigma is, is real.
And I just think, you know, I know a lot of sober people. So we did a campaign where we asked people to record one minute stories and for so many of them, it was their first time kind of coming out and, and putting it forward. And they're talking, these are people that have been sober for six, seven years, 10 years. Like their family knows, but they don't talk about it. So it is I think, and listen, even in my own experience, I'm sure that it's cost me jobs in like ways that I don't know about. People are just nervous, like, what are you gonna, can you talk to donors? Can you show up to parties? Can you, what if you get stressed? What's that? You know, and it doesn't matter. If I had had cancer, they wouldn't be like, what if you have a cancer relapse? What if you have a cheeseburger? What are you gonna, you know, like that wouldn't from any other if you had diabetes, right? Like any other disease or, or to a certain degree hiv. Like if it feels like, if it's under control, all right, it's under control. But we know when it comes to addiction that it is, you know, the stigma is so deep that it makes you untrustworthy or erratic. A decade after you've last used that, people are still nervous about what it is that's ticking inside you. And so I think that's the anti stigma work that we have to do is one about just like if you're struggling, ask for help and get help and know that recovery is possible. Right. That is almost the first step. And then the second step is community wide stigma, which is to say, like, how do you support those people? How do you let them talk about it? How do you figure out how to create ways that it's safe for them to talk about and for, for workers for recovery friendly workplaces, which is I think so hard but will have to happen. How do you create a recovery friendly place where if somebody is struggling, they can come forward and say I'm struggling. And they will be given, you know, help and resources like they would for anything else and not just fired or written up because obviously like, you know, nobody, nobody wants to go to their boss and say that they're struggling with cocaine. Nobody wants to go to their boss and say like I'm drinking at lunch because you're, and you're smart to do that because chances are you will get in trouble right away, you know, and so like, so like how do you really create a place where it's people can go and get help in the same way that you would with any other disease. And I feel like that's a big jump, but it's possible in our lifetime if we dedicate ourselves to it so.
[00:47:31] Speaker B: Well. There are so many other questions I want to ask and so many of the areas we can go. That's how good of friends we are. Sean, I don't know if you know that, but I, I hope you know you always have a place here and I hope you will come back for another episode.
I like to end every episode by asking the team two or three questions in case there's anyone listening or watching this episode who really wants to get involved in reducing stigma and.
[00:48:33] Speaker A: Oh, you froze for a little. What was the first question?
[00:48:36] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. So there is anyone legend watching this episode and they want to get involved in reducing stigma, in helping people change their lives for the better, but they're just getting into the professional sphere.
What would be some action steps you would Give them on how to get started.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: You know, if anybody is listening and is struggling, the first thing to know is that 60 million people are currently living in recovery. So it is possible they are in your community, they are around you. I've never been to anywhere where there's not multiple different types of 12 step meetings, whether it's smart recovery, AA, that type of thing. The other thing is like the Internet is great. You can download podcasts and listen to recovery experts, you can watch videos, you can just do a little investigating on your own to be able to track them down.
And then there are, if you go to the samhsa, which is the government department that handles recovery, they have a phenomenal website just to find resources that are in your town, which is samhsa.gov and they can show you what providers are nearby that you can see whether they take your insurance or not. And then I would also say, you know, 988 is always available if you are really struggling and you need to talk to someone right away. But the, the bigger idea is just that, that recovery is possible. And with the Internet there's, you know, I, I feel like I got, you know, when I was struggling, there weren't, there wasn't as much online. And so I, I might at four in the morning have been looking for what those things were and can't find it. But now you can track down tons of podcasts, tons of videos, tons of. And that may just help you to be able to go out and, and to meet with people. The other thing I would say is that I would encourage you to, at least at the beginning to find a 12 step meeting room to be able to go to, you know, that wasn't the full answer for me. But they are available, they are in every town. And if you walk in and you say like, I don't know what to do, people will come forward and help you. And I guess I would, I would leave you with this thought.
If you think about this just like structurally, right? So regardless of what you think about aa, people go and they, they walk in and they tell strangers their story. And because of that, a vast majority of them don't die.
So like, that's not, that's not, that's not science, that's not diet, that's not medicine, that's not, that is just the idea of sitting with strangers and sharing your story stops some people from dying. And I think that's because we know that the opposite of addiction is not abstinence. The opposite of addiction is community. And so I would encourage anybody who is struggling to get involved with a community, because that will be your best step.
[00:52:17] Speaker B: Thank you. One large question before you go. Get to those exciting spreadsheets.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: I know they're coming.
[00:52:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, they're chomping at the bit.
I like to think that both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover and enrage their own disabilities legend in war, this show, and groups within said groups. I'm not naive enough to think that everyone takes away the same things from every episode. So as my guests, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from this episode? And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover and embrace their disabilities all go down their road of recovery take away from this episode?
[00:53:44] Speaker A: You know, I guess I, like, I am so stuck on the idea of post traumatic growth. And so I think for. For any of us, you know, in recovery, anybody with a disability, the. The idea that, like, trauma happened and is real, and that doesn't discount or make it any less painful than it was, but the idea that there are things that you can accomplish now that you couldn't before, there are. There are things that you can accomplish that the average person cannot because they don't have your disability or they don't have, you know, your. Your series of unfortunate experiences that have brought you here. I. I think for me, that makes so much sense because I don't know a single person that doesn't have trauma in their life. And I don't. I don't know a certain person that. That doesn't have.
[00:54:31] Speaker B: They don't exist.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Don't exist. And everybody has some, you know, disability, whether it is small or large or, you know, you.
That's right. That's right. Or what it is, or, you know, or suffers, you know, has a tough family or tough relationships or everybody is going through something. And so the idea of, like, how do you focus on what you can do now that those awful things happen to you? I think for me is. Is a real breakthrough in how I frame going forward. Because a lot of time, you know, I think about what my career would be if I hadn't been fired at the height of it. Right. It would probably be. It'd probably be good, you know, like, it probably would have kept going. But to be able to say, like, well, that wasn't what was in store for me. What is in store is for. Because I couldn't. I couldn't do this unless those experiences had happened.
[00:55:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And if someone wants to get in touch or find out more about the vital work that the recovery project dogs.
What is the best way to do that?
[00:55:46] Speaker A: My like my personal website is just my name, Sean D. Daniels. So there's two Ds there and then so SeanDaniels.com and then you can click on the Recovery project and then you can see more information there.
[00:56:00] Speaker B: Well, John, I want to thank you for coming on, for being as unflinching and as vulnerable as I've always known you to be. I hope you get me a signed copy of the White oh my God.
[00:56:22] Speaker A: Of course, of course.
[00:56:24] Speaker B: I will always hold in the highest esteem and it's just so wonderful to reconnect and learn about the vital and life saving work you and your family and your community leaders and everyone you come in contact with is doing. And it's been a incredible honor to interview you today.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: Thank you. And thank you for the work that you're doing. It makes such a difference. I'm so inspired by by you. So thank you for that.
[00:57:06] Speaker B: Thank you. Have a great weekend and we'll be in touch soon.
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