Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to Disability Empowerment now season four. I'm your host, Keith Murphy de Concini. Today I'm talking to my two good friends, Adam, Leah and Mark Thurman.
Adam and Monk, welcome very much to the show.
[00:00:36] Speaker C: Well, thanks so much for having us today, Keith.
It's great to be here with you. My name is Adam Laylor. I'm the vice president for neurodiversity research and innovation at Landmark College. For folks unfamiliar with Landmark College, Landmark College is the oldest and first college in the entire world solely for students with learning disabilities, ADHD and autism. And we refer to our population as being neurodivergent.
And in my role I oversee our research and training division. I oversee our satellite operation in California known as the Landmark College Success center, as well as our center for Neurodiversity, which is the college's Neurodiversity Cultural Identity and Advocacy Center.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Hello. Hello everyone. I'm Mark Thurman. I am the director of the Centers for Diversity and Inclusion at Landmore College. Also director of the Reach one Teach one program which connects and helps students of color find success in the classroom.
Also the head men's basketball coach at Landmark College as well. And fun fact, I'm also a graduate from Landmark College.
It's an honor to be here. Hello to everyone and shout out to New Jersey because that's where I'm from.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: So yeah, I'm also a alum graduate of Landmark College. A sentence I never thought I would see on air because I barely remember going there. That's a joke. I absolutely do remember my time at Landmark. I would very touched when the vice president of marketing, I believe that its title wrote a very lovely, heartfelt, incredibly honest alumni profile of me which I again never thought would happen. And then I got invited AKA I snuck in the back door of the gayla.
And that's how I met Mark.
The college has certainly changed a lot since I was there. When I got there.
05 yeah I'm, I'm shuddering inside.
It was mainly for students with learning disabilities. In fact that's all it took. And it was a two year college just getting associate's degree. And like I told Mark and forgive me, I don't remember lads names, if mine wasn't attached to me, I would butcher it every single time. It's so long and so annoying for my ADHD brain. I'm sorry family, I'm really sorry. That's a joke.
And so but yeah, the college had changed significantly. And like I told Mark, one of my greatest regrets during my Time at Limarc College is I was very young, I was very immature and didn't really take everything away from Lamarck as I could and should have.
And if I could go back, and there's absolutely no way and no reason for me to go back, I would grab onto every possible academic skill that Lamar teaches.
Because while I did very well in my subsequent academic career, had I really taken to heart everything that Lamarck College, all the studied skills, all the academic prowess, everything going higher in academia would have probably been a bit, if not a lot easier. And so if there are any inspiring Landmark students, Landmark students just beginning their time at Landmark, take it from a long time alum, do not make my mistake, do not make my regret.
Really embrace the college and everything they teach and don't take it for granted because the skills they teach you will help you regardless of what you do in life. And so that's just a shout out at the very beginning of really take advantage of every opportunity the college offers. With that long PSA out of the way, why don't we jump forward to everything that the college has become since my time there, which was only.05 to the latter half of O6 or something like that.
Tell me about everything that has happened, sent to the college.
[00:08:27] Speaker C: Absolutely. That's a. 20 years is a long time, Keith. But I have to say, having been in charge of the residence hall that you lived in during that time, one of the things that I always appreciated about you was even if you don't recognize it in yourself, a big part of your early years was interacting with other neurodivergent students just as college students. I think that's some of the power that Landmark has.
It is an educational institution, but not only an educational institution. It's a community. It's a community of being where all the students and many of the faculty and staff like myself are neurodivergent. And my colleague John Elder Robeson, who is is a Center for Neurodiversity advisor at Landmark, oftentimes will say to me when he comes to campus, he's like, Adam, you just don't get it. There's no other place on this earth where you can be surrounded by so many disclosing neurodivergent people for this length of time. He's like, it's. This is more than just an educational institution. This is cultural institution.
And, and it really is. I mean it's, and it certainly evolves from its early beginnings really simply in the pre Americans with Disabilities act phase of just wanting to provide an opportunity for students to continue their education post secondary and what are the strategies and the techniques that needed to be used in order to at that time really serve dyslexic, later on learning disabled and then later on ADHD and autistic students.
So I mean over the time we've really evolved from, into a community, I mean a cultural community where we focus on identity, where we help students really think and reflect on themselves and how their neurodivergence intersects with so many other identities.
And to do that we've really expanded our programs. We're a small college, I mean we're about 500 students on campus and then another couple hundred online in our dual enrollment associates online as well as our post baccalaureate opportunity for students to learn to gain a certificate in learning differences in neurodiversity. So there's always time for you to come back, Keith, is what I'm saying.
You can become a double alum if you want to.
It's. But I mean over, over the years, I mean we've certainly expanded the profile of students that, that we're able to work with and really serve intently. So I mean learning disabilities, adhd, autism, we have moved from offering solely associate's degrees to now we have a full bevy of baccalaureate degrees. And as I mentioned, the certificate for post undergraduate students, we have a growing, fast growing, I should say online program and online presence. So I mean even if our physical campus can only house so many students in beds, students from around the country, whether they be in California, Arizona or right down the road in Boston, can really work. They can get an education that is intentionally designed for their learning needs.
It's with people who understand who they are as learners and have the empathy, try to understand their lived experiences and really believe in them. The other thing that we offer is, I mean we've expanded in terms of our, I mean where our physical sites are. We now have our new Bay Area Success center that's located in San Mateo, California and they have an on site operation there where they serve folks who are frankly not our students. They're folks who may be attending other colleges. They might be in the business world. So for example, they might be working for Disney or Google or any of those other industries and they need support in the workplace related more companies, a lot of companies, a lot of secondary students and I mean and college students and very small companies as you say. Yeah, it's so it's, I mean we really have a growing presence.
Our certificate program pulls from around the world now. It's not just located in Putney, Vermont, we're able to educate students in Indonesia and Africa and South America. Canada, certainly. So we're growing in reach. The center I oversee is our research and training center, the landmark college institute for research and training. And we recognize that, as I was saying, we can only reach so many students, but we know that other institutions are working with students like ours. So we spend a lot of time researching our practices and practices that have emerged in the field and really try to translate those for educators, business people, the federal government, to really try to help them better work with folks like us and folks in the neurodivergent community.
And to that end, I do considerable amount of work with Mark, really trying to make sure that what we do on campus, as well as what we offer to folks externally, really includes and understands the diversity of the neurodivergent experience. It's not one size all. It's not, despite what the research was based on. It's not just the white CIS male high SES profile. There's a lot more folks who share these profiles and that frankly, they help shape their neurodiversion experience.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Oh yeah.
Speaking on that, thank you, Adam. That was amazing. Just breaking down everything in the journey and where we are today.
Keith, thank you again for allowing me to be here and connect again. I'm Mark Thurman. I am the director of the Centers for Diversity and Inclusion, and I'm an alum. And I think for me, hold on.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: To let you know, Adam really twisted my arm.
No, no, no. We met at the gala, Mark, and your. Your sense of fashion.
Wow, you made me feel under dressed.
Like if you're ever looking for another job. Well, talk of one.
No, it was like. I know there were a few alarms from my time there, but speaking of the gala, it was very well attended.
The amount of money and then some that it needed to end judge. Your energy, Mark, was a breadth of fresh air. And I saw through the way you presented yourself as a new age graduate compared to me, even before I really understood or looked at your job title with the college, how much the college had grown in its student population, the opportunities it offered and evolved forwarded the next generation. And so I want to really say that before you begin because you are really a testament, one testament to how much the college has evolved.
Evolved?
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: And I want to give you credit for that. You're not the only one. I'm not trying to say that, but the person I saw, the level of personal and professional confidence which I'm sure was instilled in the college really shown through. And that's another thing that I believe it's important to illustrate is that.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, you speaking. You're speaking right on it, Keith.
I would say opportunity is everything. I'm. I'm a young. I'm a young African American man who, you know, grew up in the inner city and was a college dropout. I was. I was a kid that was in foster care growing up and then was really grateful enough to be able to be adopted by a wonderful mom. And so that was a journey on my journey to getting to landmark. And opportunity is everything. You know, I have five brothers and three sisters, and coming from the environment that I come from, you don't see success rapidly meaning of what to do if you're not a rapper, if you're not a ball player.
Speaking about going to college wasn't the conversation, but, you know, landmark. Landmark College was a special place because when I. When I left home, it was more of a shock. It was more of like, whoa, where are you going?
And I think, you know, that was like the first time where I really, really accepted the fact that I'm neurodiverse and I need to go somewhere that's going to really connect with how I learn. And when I came to landmark, you know, my brother would say, he's like, why are you going to Vermont? You don't ski. What are you doing? And I remember telling him, like, this place is going to help me get to where I already envisioned myself going. I wasn't sure what was going to be, but I knew something special was going to happen once I got here.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: So let me stop you there again, because you said something. You said a lot of things that were important there, Judging your history and the assumption that African Americans gravitate to being wild quayards rabbits.
But in terms of your very first impressions of Landmark, I was very taken by what you said to your brother. And I wonder if you can talk about that.
What was in the air or what did you feel calculating that really drew you in like a tractor beam to Lamar College. What. What would the energy manifesting at that time you were judge beginning your journey.
That really.
Because I didn't have that experience, unfortunately. And I'm always curious when someone had the polar opposite set that really grounds them in a sense of this may be scary out of my comfort zone, but it also feels like home. And so talk more about that.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: I think really, really gravitated me to come here, honestly. I think.
I think the support just Having someone. My mother supported me all the way. So, you know, having that support was like, okay, I already believe I can do it. My mother said, I can do it. So by the time I came to Landmark, I came for a visit, and I met students who were able to connect with me and who look like me. And that really changed the narrative where I was like, oh, okay, I've already met students who look like me who are already here. And so therefore, I wasn't, I think, any nervous or fear, anything kind of went left because I was like, all right, this is where I need to be.
Once that happened, I met individuals that really, from resident Dean Coach Wood, Ms. Arnell Mama Wood, and just student leaders from Jamal Jackson to Pat McKenna to Ryan November, who really came up to me and was just like, you know, welcome to. Welcome to the family. Welcome to Landmark. And that's all I really needed. Once I had that connection, it was more of, how do I really accept my neurodiversity? How do I really process ADHD and dyslexia and having it. How do I not look at it as this.
This bad thing, but look at it as a gift, look at it as a superpower. And I think just being around other people, for the first time, I was like, wow, for the first time, I am not the only one. For the first time, there's others like me. For the first time, I saw graduates walk the stage that have ADHD and dyslexia. And I was like, I can do that. I can do that. And shout out to Mr. Stanley, who was my.
I guess, like the advisor, the admissions counselor at the time when I first came in 2015, 2014, and he said.
He said, are you ready for Landmark College? And my mother, she just gave me this powerful speech before I came to see Mr. Stanley. And she was like, you're at Landmark. Your name is Mark. You're going to come here and you're going to make a mark. You're going to leave a mark here. And I looked at my mom.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: I love your mother.
That such.
But also very true to Fudge.
[00:25:33] Speaker A: Shout out to my mom. So at that time, I. After she said that to me, that's when I started looking at it. And you said something when you were like, landmark gives you all these. They give you opportunity, and they show you that, hey, there's nothing wrong with you. We're going to help you understand your neurodiversity so that you can better understand who you are and then find this purpose and this gift that you have. So It's a step by step process. And so when Mr. Stanley said to me, are you ready for Landmark College? And my cousin was there, my brother was there, everyone was in the room. And I looked at Mr. Stanley and said, you know, Landmark College is not ready for me. And I didn't know what I was kind of like putting into.
Putting out there. Putting that energy out there. And I put the energy out there because Landmark kind of matched me with that energy and said, yeah, you can.
Yeah, you can be that. You can be that. And once I got here my first semester, I think I was still trying to figure things out. And I think everyone deserves a mentor. Everyone deserves a mentor. And Ms. Arnell, who was the resident dean and John Wood was the RD and the head basketball coach at the time, really took me underneath their wing. And Ms. Arnell sat me down and said, I see a gift in you, and I think you can do a lot of great things here besides just being an ra, you know, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to change the world. And I told her that. And she looked at me and said, how are you going to do that where your two feet are? And that changed everything for me. And so from there, I joined clubs. I got really involved with the campus. I was understanding that I wasn't just here to go to class, but I was also here to find my purpose and what I needed to do in this life. Right. That was just the energy I felt. And from there, Coach Wood told me, I believe in you. Now show me what you got. And that's when college kind of started changing. And this is where I'm talking about, where you connect with me, because we're both neurodiverse, so it's like, oh, wow. But then we get into intersectionality, your identity, who you are, and around that.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: So wanted to steal what you were wearing. Let's Leah about that. I was also intimidated. I would like practicing. Why are you me also, I just find it very humbling that the dean of the college is still there.
That was there when I went there, and he still remembered my name. And he still had two copies of my Way Too Eager Tipstickle autobiography.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: I'm just spellbound by the go on mark.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: So that just inspired me to. Around that time, you know, Ferguson and Black Lives Matter and Trayvon Martin trial, all these things were happening. And I was here.
And at that time, I saw students that look like me. I saw students that didn't look like me really be concerned about what was happening. In the world. So therefore, I was like, oh, wow. You know, we need something here that speaks for who we are, but also gives space so that we can have these conversations, so that we can know what to say. Because a lot of times we hear things on Instagram or TV and we may not be saying it right, especially if you want to have a conversation about your identity and your gender and your religion and your race. So at that time, I remember talking to the id, saying, hey, we need a safe space for students of color. But not only a safe space for students of color, an open space so that the community can come in and connect about issues that are happening within the community of students who are African American, students who are having understanding what's happening. Because how are you supposed to learn in the classroom? I can't talk about who I am, what's happening in my community.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to that, but I want to ask it anyway. And if I'm incorrect, how did you overcome that?
What did you encounter any early on? Resistance?
And how were you able to get past that?
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Understanding that it's not just about you, it's really about how do I connect with other people who want to see this happen? So at that time, it was teamwork. Make the dream work. Adam knows this. We're about the Avengers. You know, Adam's Thor on Black Panther, we here. So it's like, so Thor is a.
[00:31:06] Speaker C: Lot better looking than I am.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Shout out to Chris Hemworth, who definitely does not watch.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: So from there, it was really just connecting with everyone on campus. Shout out to Michael Luciani, who was very, very open. And the president at the time, Peter Eaton, was very, very open. And we went to a lot of meetings just to talk about how this would work and what effect it would have on students. But at that time, I really didn't look at the negative, because Landmark was like, you're neurodiverse. I'm neurodiverse. So it was more of an open conversation. It wasn't not saying it didn't have its setbacks, but I think for me, it was, you know, stay focused on the goal. This is gonna happen, you know, and it's gonna make. It's gonna help everyone. That's just me. And shout out to the RDS, Ms. Arnell, and coach Wood for just believing in me. And at the time, our dean of students, too, as well. So we were able to create this safe space. And once we created the rise of center, it really, really took off. And once the riser center comes. This is where a domino effect happens. And this is where I fast forward to where I am today. That safe space didn't only help me, but it helped countless students walk across that stage and graduate. Not only did the safe space make impact on this community, not just for students of color, but for everybody. But it brought in the Stonewall center for students who are trans, students who are queer, students who want to express themselves but needed a safe space. See this domino effect. And then from there, we had the women of gender center, which really sparked me into creating the rise of center. So then we have the women and gender center. And then that sparks what, another safe space, which is the Pallante center for students who are Hispanic, Hispanic and come from different Latin cultures and different backgrounds. And then we have.
Then we have the interfaith safe space that is really centered so that students that are coming from different religious backgrounds have a safe space to connect. Have a safe space if you're Jewish, if you're Muslim, if you're Baptist, you know, you have these different spaces that says you're welcome here. We see you, we hear you, and you belong here. It does something. It changes the narrative. And when you're neurodiverse, everyone's like, how are you able to speak about diversity, equity and inclusion, religion and gender, all these different things and intersectionality? It's because when we look at diversity, equity and inclusion, it's not black and white. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is something that we keep speaking about, and it's about community and within community. And when you look in community, everyone looks different. When you look at community, we're also looking at our neurodiverse community. We're also looking at someone. We're looking at neurodiverse community. Everyone has something that's different from the other person. So therefore, it feeds into our diverse community, where everyone looks different. And with saying that, we also have the Asian community club. So therefore it's like, what? Look where we are. Look what we're doing. Look what we're impacting and connecting. When we look at graduation, we look at the graduation stage, you see this diverse population of students who are not only connected with the centers for diversity and inclusion. That said, hey, I want to be an ra. So then you're in resignation of life. Oh, hey, I want to be in student government. Oh, my goodness. Oh, hey, I want to be in a neurodiversity club. Okay, let's go. What we have done is change the narrative and say that folks that look like me can be Successful here, but also be welcoming here, also will be seen and heard here. And in this day and time, as we turn on the TV every day, there's this split, there's this me versus you. But here at Landmark, it's about community, understanding. And no matter how many times we have to go over it, guess what? We're going to process this journey with you. Guess what? We're going to walk these steps with you. And just to bring in Roto, Adam and myself and Fabio and Kelly Orion. Big shout out to Kelly, Orion and Fabio because. And Adam, because what we were able to really do when we created the Roto program was really state the fact of mentorship and mentees and mentorship and how do we impact, inspire other students to help one another. So here we are, you know, we're making progress, we're making change, but we're having a room full of 25 to 30 students who are not just from the United States, students who are from Brazil, students from Puerto Rico, students who are from Ghana, students who are from whose backgrounds? From China. So it's like, wow. Or students who are from India. So it's like, wow, look at all these amazing people. Students who are from London, Canada. So it's like, okay, let's talk about it. The Caribbean's Haitian. So you're having this vibrant realm of neurodiversity, means diversity. Because when you say neurodiversity, you're saying diversity as well. And it's all about community. And that's where we are now. So here's a guy by the name of Mark Thurman who you believed in in 2014.
And I was able to be the first in my family to get my AA and my ba so when my brothers and sisters look at me, it's, oh, my goodness, this is what success looks like. Also, this is what happens when you're given opportunity and when you have not one person, you got about 5, 10, 20 people saying, yes, we believe in you. That's Landmark College.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Joe. Adam, how can you follow that up?
[00:36:54] Speaker C: I mean, that was a mic drop, so moment. So.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:37:02] Speaker C: It's something just to add to that. I mean, I mean, Mark's, I mean, story. I mean, is powerful, but I mean, since the. The days that you were on campus and before Keith, those are the stories that I hear about all the time. Oh, yeah, it's. I mean, it's.
In the last year, I've had students who have not been successful at other colleges, have not been successful in the K12 education, getting by to Be perfectly honest, sometimes on charity and the desire just to get them out of the system.
And they've come to Landmark and more than anything else. And I mean, I think education is critical, but I think really loving the opportunity to learn in both formal and informal environments is even more important to our society. So, I mean, when I see folks who have had, whether it's a big T trauma or a little T trauma in, in their educational history, and then they come to Landmark and fall in love with learning again, it's. I mean, that is, that's the magic that they. I mean, where folks get excited about learning something new, whether it's through a formal class, I mean, watching a documentary, reading a book, I mean, going to a museum. Those are the things that our students are doing. And then many of them, I mean, are continuing their education beyond the college. I was just talking with one of our students who just is beginning a master's in social work at the College Columbia. And another one of our students is. Has just been accepted to Syracuse, and I have someone going to a doctoral program at the University of Toronto. They're Canadian, that's why. But I'll forgive them for not. Not going to be a school down the road closer to us where we can see them more often. But it's, I mean, it's one of the top programs in the world in psychology.
It's. And then back, I mean, from when you were, I mean, a student. Keith. I mean, there are students that I follow. I mean, Facebook is phasing out, but I still. We're still friends on Facebook that went off to get their education in Texas or Rhode island and get those bachelor's degrees that we didn't offer at that time. So inspiring.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: I think also what hampered where I. I was in my journey is that I did not have leads then. A lot of confidence in myself, and I was very distrusting of others.
I wasn't ready for that environmental shift shift.
And I wish I had been had I only taken a year off between high school and Landmark, but that would have changed probably the entire trajectory of my life. But it's very nice to be in, able to see and to hear that the sense of community in the college has evolved to such a extent. Another shout out. And this one tickled me pink that my image teacher John Rhodes is still there and he still remembers me from 20 years ago.
That just blows my mind. But yeah, the sense of community and the international reach that Lamar now has, because I don't remember seeing or feeling that 20 years ago. And I wanted to find out more because, Mark, you outlined or illustrated a good chunk of the world map that not only attends either in person or online, but Lamar College. And that, I don't want to say unique.
Well, it may be unique, but it's also very special for a college of landmark's sides. I'm trying to remember the total when I was there. Adam, help me out. I think it was half of what it is now.
I also went to a very small high school, and so that's why I'm probably undershooting the total. But talk about that expansion in terms of community, because the more and more diversity you mix into the part of the student body, the better and better it gets with no diversity. So how has that enhanced the college as a whole?
[00:43:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I could start off of that sort of. I mean, taking it from the past to the current. But I mean, I think Mark will certainly need to add in more recent times, the college, I mean, we have brought in international students. At least in my entire time there. It's more heavily. We're coming from Europe and to some extent the Middle east back in the early 2000s, at least based on my recollection. Now we have students that, I mean, come from all over the globe. It's. And not only different races, but have different, I mean, different languages, different religions, different, I mean, just broadly different cultures.
I mean, over the years, there's really has been a concerted effort on the college's part to not just keep things internal. It's. I mean, our goal and it's stated in our mission is to educate neurodivergent students, but also share what we learn broadly. Because in order to change the world, as Mark says, one person can change the world, but if you have a whole lot of people trying to change the world, it'll go a little bit faster.
So we try to really make sure that we share what's special about Landmark, from our values to our pedagogy to the strategies that we teach our students.
My team will go out. I mean, I have a team in the Landmark College Institute for Research and Training that goes out constantly.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: Man.
[00:45:29] Speaker C: I just had a colleague that came back from Belgium where he was working out.
I mean, last week was with Mark, and we were down in Baltimore.
On Sunday, I leave for California and I have stops in Sacramento.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: So, Adam, when you go to Italy at any time, feel free to just shove me in extra large suit maids and judge hoping, pray that I'd somehow get into luggage with you. Guts.
Joking aside, I Want to re touch on the special needs of that connection, of that reach because they didn't. Stanford, Vincent, Harvard. You just mentioned a alum who got into Columbia vids. It's a small college, not name shame here. But it's not even a university with why the. It's IND a university, but it's a small college with a certain kind of charm, to use a very weird phrase.
What is it about?
Because a lot of listeners and viewers may be wondering, well, how is a small college able to attract. And we've talked about it, but just to drive the point home, how is a small college able to expand their reach to a heavily international student body and even prospective students to where it was 20 years ago to now?
[00:48:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's, I mean certainly, I mean the college has invested heavily in outreach. Our admissions and marketing and communications department do a great job in reaching and trying to remain in touch with folks internationally.
My office. One of the things that we do that helps to contribute to that is that we are constantly publishing research, whether it's articles, book chapters. I have a new book that I'm working on that hopefully will be out there in the next year.
So we are constantly putting out information. We're also constantly traveling and not just, I mean not just to individual institutions, but we're at major conferences, major events where sometimes, you know, we're the only one there talking about neurodiversity and parents and families. I have to say, I mean across the world we are a leader in neurodiversity of the United States. I mean there are some other countries that are doing excellent work. In Australia, I'm thinking Ireland, I'm thinking about. But when folks, when there are families out there that are saying, you know, my kid can go, they're smart, they can go on to higher education, but their country is not there yet, they look abroad. And being the first college in the world really that focuses in, on this population, we have a tremendous reputation amongst families, amongst disability professionals at secondary and post secondary institutions. So I've been a big part of it, frankly. We think about the, the world being a very big place, but this community can be very tight and we share that information.
And so it's, I mean word of mouth is also huge. I mean I can put out as much advertising as I want, but if my best friend tells me something that you got to look at this place, I'm going to do that first.
So word of mouth is really tremendous for us and we have to live up to it. And that's One of the things that we're constantly thinking about, how do we make sure that we remain?
I don't. I don't want to go to the point of being and always saying that we're the best. I always try to temper those expectations of folklore. But, I mean, we. We certainly pretty darn good.
And it's. We try to make sure that we're constantly involving and never settling for who we are as an institution. As an institution, the strategies that we use, we always think we can do better.
It's very young college. We don't have that history of traditions as much.
[00:51:03] Speaker B: So, Mark, going back to the sage advice that your mother gave you, how does it feel to make your mark and make it in such a way that it's going on still 10 years on? And just like Adam, I cannot see you going anywhere else.
And so.
And so you're very rooted in the community, in the culture, in dare I'd say almost, if not every facet of Landmark College.
How is it propelling a more inclusive community board for the next generation and the next and the next?
[00:52:17] Speaker A: Well, that's a great question. Thank you for that. And I, like, I also want to.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: Meet your mother legend.
She sounds so great.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: But, yeah, I would say shout out to Craig Marcus, who's the dean of students here at Landmark College, but we've really been talking about allyship and identity and having these conversations where when new students are coming into campus and we have our PowerPoint presentation, we're really talking about what that looks like on campus and how you can be an ally of communities here on campus. I think that's the first thing that we really, really want to make sure we not only have it for the students, but now we're looking at it where we talk about faculty and staff and allyship and connecting, intersectionality. Right. And shout out to Sebeggi and Tyler Baker, because we also have the DEI committee that meets with the vice president and the president, other deans on campus, where we're able to talk about, with having our CDI coordinators also at the table to speak about what's happening in these different communities, these different conversations, what are students talking about, what's happening there? And we're all able to really talk about how we seeing things move. And I think, you know, working myself, working with Craig Marcus, and we really are really putting this, planting the seed of understanding that how do we continue to support each other? How do we continue to show up for each other? And I think for students that are coming in it's man, what if I don't see myself in these groups? Because if you're neurodiverse, it can be very scary to kind of join a group or be a part of a team or express yourself.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: Going back to when I came in, I think I had that exact problem. I felt very much and I'm almost tearing up here like a fish out of water, even though I very much watch. And I do not think that at the time, although it may have been my stellar attitude too, which I've already touched upon, which probably also hampered things. But I'm sure there were a lot of groups 20 years ago, but I think that I'm sure was a part of the constant evolution of where the college is now that the groups are much more. More. It sounds expensive.
There's a lot more mentor chips. And I completely agree with you on everyone deserves a mentor. And not too bad the college I went to when I was there. Can you still hear me?
[00:55:56] Speaker A: Okay, good.
[00:56:01] Speaker B: I. I just don't think it was there or I didn't see and feel it enough. Which again isn't a bad reflection on the college then. I mean this is 20 years ago grow up.
But I think it should propelled what the college had become and it's constantly evolving. I mean it will be great to have another interview 10 years down the line and reimagine and reevaluate.
[00:56:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:56:55] Speaker B: Judge from the ten year growth spurt that landmark has from this moment right now to 10 years in the future and then me and Adam ruminating 30 years on. But yeah, the allied ship, the mentorship and the expansive social groups, cultural groups, religions groups, everything had judged seemed to explode in the right direction again along psa, but sort of getting back to into that realm. Not that you need my help, Mark.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: No, this is great.
[00:58:03] Speaker C: This is.
[00:58:04] Speaker A: Everything you're saying is spot on because it's also allowing. One thing I really like is we're giving it back to the students. It's like Star wars, right? Everyone wants to be a Jedi, but at the same time is, are you giving people the opportunity to become a Jedi to understand what it's like, what you need to do to be a Jedi right here. It's the student leaders that are really stepping up and you giving these students that before they got here didn't get these opportunities to be the leader, to be the.
What ideas do you have? What ideas do I have? It's the first time someone has asked me that. So I think understanding the power move here is we're not Forgetting about why this place is here is to connect and help these students see that they can accomplish a goal. But also we believe in them so that they can believe in themselves. So once that pivot foot happens, once that happens, they're able to turn around and help the next student that's coming up. So therefore, Adam Lanyard is here, Mark Thurman is here. But what makes impact is the domino effect afterwards. So I'm not the only one speaking like this. You talk to Nailah from Rise up, she's going to speak like this. You talk to Madison Perkins from the Women and Gender center, she's going to speak like this. You talk to Josh from the Pallante center, he's going to speak like this. Other Madison from the Asian Community Club. The list goes on and on. And the thing is when you're giving, when you're, when you reach the top, we're like, hey, help someone else do the same thing. Just as when I first came in here, I was able to have those mentors and now I'm working with them. I'm working with Adam, I'm working with the Craig Marcus's, I'm working with Michael, I'm working with different Sovaggy and Tyler Bake. All these different people that when I was here, saw, saw lights, all spark, influence, made impact. So therefore, here I am at a table with these big heavy hitters of Avengers and I'm like, wow, I belong in this room. They like, yes, you do. So when students see that and they see opportunity, they know, okay, if I can make it here at Landmark, by the time I go off and explore and make my own journey and figure out and know what my purpose is and know what I want to do in this world, I'm able to do that. Why? Because, oh, shout out to Adam, shout out to Mark, shout out to. Shout out to all these different people. Shout out to the rds, Nicole, the list goes on Angel Christian show, you know, so it's like they have people that they can still hit up to this day. Like Adam said, he just connected with some people that are going to their graduate schools, but they're always coming back and connecting and it's a big thing. And I was saying before I end this, a student by the name of Julius. And I always bring him up because when we started the center for Diversity and Inclusion, I think at one point after I got my aa, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm ready to go out. Let me go off to another school. And this kid came to me and Smacked me on the wrist, said, yo, why are you gonna leave when you build this for us? And I never. That really changed the narrative where it was. It's not about you. It's not about you. It's about what's coming after you. It's about the impact you're gonna make on another person. So I will tell you this. Five years, six years later, this kid graduated with his aaa. And he's from the Queens, the projects. Queens, New York. Right. He graduated his AA from here. Three years later, I'm here, I'm working, doing my thing. Just recently, a month ago, he calls me. I hear a celebration in the background. He said, Yo, Mr. Thurman, I got my BA, got his Bachelor's degree from this music school in New York. But he did it and he had time for that moment to call me and say, hey, thank you for believing in me. Thank you for not giving up on me because I had a hard time, but I made it. And look, I got my ba. That's what it's about. As long as we're doing that, then this is why 20 years from now, when you do the same interview and I got a little gray hair in my head, you know, Adam's still here being big dog.
[01:02:19] Speaker B: But we'll hey, hey, Dean. It's still here after 20 years. I think you're lost in to 20 years. Are going beyond 20 years. Kids at Landmark College, if there's one thing that is distilled into you from the very beginning, it's about competition. It's about always competing against your fellow students.
No, it's not at all. This episode could just be shout outs after shout outs and this episode could easily go another five hours.
But we've already teamed up the 10th and 20 year anniversary of a bit, so. Which means I'm locked in. Adam, if I don't retire, you can't at all.
And so. But winding down part one, there's always two questions I like to ask my guests if there are any inspiring, neurodivergent advocates, students, creators, educators. The legend goes on and on. And we all know that what would be some advice you would give people should starting out on their path in making a mark, making this world a better bridge, more inclusive, more diverse. What would be some of your advice?
[01:04:43] Speaker C: Great question, Keith. It's, you know, it's. I, I think it's fair to say, I mean, this isn't easy work. I mean, it's not. I mean it takes. It's not just you're doing the work. It's also takes an emotional toll because you're doing it. This is, this is passion work.
So, I mean, there is that toll. And sometimes.
And we all want things to. To change. I mean, that's, that's why we are social justice people. We want to see the world change.
But sometimes it feels like it's not going to in the moment. Sometimes it feels like it's such.
It is impossible to fight and work anymore.
And I always encourage folks to remember that in the disability and neurodiversity world, I mean, when you were in College, Keith, in 2005, that was only 15 years removed from the Americans with Disabilities act being signed.
And we are still pretty young, just, I mean, as a people.
[01:05:50] Speaker B: So it's very. I'm glad you brought that up because it's very easy to forget that.
[01:06:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's important that we celebrate our history and how far we've come in terms of our rights in a very short period of time. And we still have a ways to go. I'm not denying that. But sometimes we have to celebrate what we have accomplished in order to renew and keep us going, because we are seeing change. But it's at a macro level.
Across a relatively short period of time. We were discriminated and contained, continue to be discriminated for most of our history as a people. And now we have rights, but we're very new in that area. We have protections. Very new in that area. But we've done it. We've done that. And now we get to continue doing this work with those protections, which allows us to do a little bit more. So we have a lot of celebrating to do as a community. A lot of thanks to give to the early disability rights activists.
And I also think about the founders of Landmark College who founded the college in 1985 pre ADA. They were some of the original disability rights activists.
So they've accomplished a lot. Incredibly grateful. And it's. I mean, even when the days are hard and long, I reflect back on them and what they were able to do and think that in the next 20 years, just imagine what this world will be like in terms of accessibility, equity, diversity. It's a. Give us an exciting future ahead of us.
[01:07:41] Speaker A: Right on, Adam. Right on. And I definitely, you know, to add on to that, you know, understand this. You're not alone.
You're not the only one.
There's so many others just like us. And I always bring this up, but like Professor X Academy and the Mutants, Wolverine and, and Jane and Cyclops, we are here.
And I Think also understanding that it's a step by step process and it's okay to talk about it, it's okay to express it. It's okay to be totally who you are, continue to be authentic. Because like I said, me searching, me building, me trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Me climbing those steps was inspiring a whole list of other people that's calling me today saying, yo, thank you.
So therefore, we need you. So anyone who's listening, anyone who's tuning in, we need you to continue to speak up. We need you to continue to tell your story because there's so many young kids out here that need this information, that needs to hear these stories and understanding they're not the only one and that we're here for them, you know, and we believe in you. So if you don't feel like no one believes in you, just know that Mark, Thurman, Keith and Adam, we believe in you. And anything is possible. Because I'm here because I had a dream. I'm here because somebody believed in a dream that I had. And that changes everything.
[01:09:23] Speaker B: Billy Will said both of you, last question to end part one of this long series interview stretching across many years, it seems is, and I would try to say that's a joke. I don't think it is at all. I'm locked in.
Thanks.
But anyway, so I like to think that both people who are who both people who are neurodivergent advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their disabilities, their neurodivergent capabilities, both Legend and Watch program and all the groups within those groups. But I'm not naive to think that they take the exact same things away from each episode. And we've talked about a lot of topics, we've talked, reminisce, we've joked a lot.
As my guests, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from this episode? And what do you hope that people who have yet to discover embrace their disabilities take away from the separate circle?
[01:11:35] Speaker C: And what I would say is, as the vice president, one of the vice presidents at Landmark, we invite everyone, whether you, you're always welcome. There's a community that will embrace you.
It's whether you are neurodivergent, whether you're a future neurodivergent member. It's as if, I mean, again, if we're, if we're all lucky enough, it's mean we'll live to that ripe old age where even if you're not today, you will become a member of our community. And there'll always be a place for you. There'll be a place that values you for who you are as a person, where you don't have to put on airs, you don't have to mask. And sometimes knowing that there's just a place out there that does that can be enough to keep you going through some of those more difficult times.
So it's. I mean, our community values you. Like Mark said, we need folks. So whether they're neurodivergent folks or allies, we need you out there. We need you raising awareness of this issue, much like the way you do Keith, with this show. This didn't exist years ago.
More and more is being said about this community. The fact that this show even exists, about this community is critical.
We're strong, we're growing, and it's. There's a lot, a lot of hope. There's a lot, a lot of good things coming in our future.
And when you need us, we're there.
[01:13:26] Speaker A: I like that. When you need us, we there. And I think, you know, just on top of that, just, you know, again, you're not alone. You're not alone. You're not alone. You're not alone. And if you. If that's hard to really process and take in right now, it's okay. Take it one day at a time. Take your time, and understand that being neurodiverse is your superpower. So unleash it. I'm standing right here. I'm standing right here telling you that, you know, I've just had a conference speaking with people and connecting with different members of different colleges all around the US And I'm a neurodiverse in the room, and they're asking me, hey, how do we. How can we do better me? So therefore, what I'm telling anyone who's listening is, it could be you, too. You could be the game changer. You can be exactly what we've been looking for. Just like someone saw that in me, and I saw it in myself. I'm seeing it in you. You just got to go out there and get ready. It's your time. It's your time. And that's why we're here, speaking the way that we're speaking, because it's your time.
[01:14:31] Speaker B: Thank you so much, gentlemen. I will, of course, see you well before 10 years. And we'll probably sneak a couple more episodes before we do the next reunion episode and the one after that. Adam, neither you amok can quit. As long as I'm doing this show, you two are locked in and the college is all the better for.
Was great to reconnect and meet you Mark, and look forward to seeing both of you in person very, very soon.
I'm ecstatic that the college is doing so well and I can't wait to take a tour again and rediscover it almost as new before we sign up in case there are any legionnaires who either want to get in touch with either of you or find out more about the wonderful work and critical work that Lamarck College does.
What are the easiest embeds ways to do that?
[01:16:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean certainly, I mean visit the Landmark College website. It's just Landmark Edu or L A n D M A R K dot edu.
There's will be a tremendous amount of information along with our email addresses. You can find out all about our programs and services.
If you're interested in emailing me, it's InstituteAndMark edu for me.
[01:16:47] Speaker A: Just, you know, email Mark Thurman. M A R C T H U I M A N Landmark Edu. Any questions when we're talking about Centers for Diversity and inclusion, the Reach one Teach one program. Any ball players out there for the men's basketball team as well? We did go five and six last season and we're looking at adding some new players this season.
But yeah. So if anyone wants to reach out, I'm always here. Definitely email and I'll get right back to you as soon as I can.
[01:17:16] Speaker B: Thank you again guys so much and I look forward to talking to you again very, very soon. Have a great week.
[01:17:29] Speaker C: Thanks, Keith. You too.
[01:17:31] Speaker A: Thank you, Keith. I'll see you. You take care.
[01:17:33] Speaker B: See ya.
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