Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to did sibling empowerment now, season four. I'm your host, Keith Maffidi Ginsini. Today I'm talking to Megan Lumitz, who is an openly artistic, maltese, disabled theater director, and Katherine McCracken, who is a openly artistic, multibly disabled actor.
Welcome to the show, both of you.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: How did you find the show? Because, as I was saying before, before the recording, I've never had two dads seek me out in ags to be interviewed. I'm flattered, ads, but this is really new for me.
And I'd say that with no ego attached. Maybe judge a tad.
How could you? Because we're all actors. Or get into that later. How did you find the podcast?
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I saw Nicole D'Angelo.
We both know Nicole in kind of a variety of different ways.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: I'm joking.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: And I saw the post on their instagram about the podcast episode with you and then looked a little bit more into it. We're both really into disability and accessible theater. So I was like, okay, let's reach out. Let's talk about disability, accessible theater, because that seems to be your thing. That's our thing. So it's kind of how I found.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: You and why I not Tom Lee at all.
And, yeah, I know it's interesting cause my connection with Nicole actually dates back several years, but I had just met her in person, like, a month ago, and I wanted to try. I'm in between seasons right now, and I wanted to try something different. And I happen to see how to dance in Ohio six times as good edge mine, ladies. Uh, but.
So I wanted to do a creative and artistic, uh, deep dive into the creation and impact of that musical. And so I managed to get, uh, some Tads members, a lot of the creative crew, to do a six hour mini series on kids on board. Uh, no good.
That show is so important in everything it represents, and it's so nice to meet someone like Nicole in person, who you've known for years through social media. And then she said, hey, I think we actually know each other. And pulls up my profile on Facebook, and I'm like, well, I'll be darned.
Yeah. But, yeah, that's how I met Nicole. And that interview really kicked off the series.
And so, yeah, I'm trying to connect this to that, even though I have no idea in season four where vid episode will be placed. But it's nice because theater does need to be so much more accessible, both on stage and in the, uh, orchestra, in the theater itself. So what theater company do you work for? Did you found, uh. How did you two meet? Tell me the old story. I've only got literally 5 hours booked out for this interview. That's a joke I'm carrying through the entire season.
I shouldn't have told you that, but it's too hilarious to keep inside, so, uh.
Yeah. To get away.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: Yeah. So I don't run a theater company. I just kind of. I just kind of independently create my own work.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: Oh, okay, good. When you. When you messaged me on insta, you'd said theater artistic director, and I just made the assumption.
And you were.
[00:06:28] Speaker C: Yeah. So I kind of realized that the industry is not super accessible, and it's really not accessible for people who want to direct and people who want to do things kind of backstage. And so I just started kind of creating my own opportunities. And through that, I met katherine through a mutual friend. We worked on a show about a year ago called love isn't real, um, that I produced in direct.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Not.
[00:06:59] Speaker C: That's the question of the show.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: I just needed to really be that. I hope I would dead band in that individual.
[00:07:11] Speaker C: Um, we worked on that.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: I swear, this isn't a comedy show coming to me, and I just can't shut up. Continue.
[00:07:27] Speaker C: We worked on that show together, and Catherine played the lead. I directed it. It was her first time kind of being openly, openly disabled on stage.
And you can dive more into that.
I'll get a little bit of this. Yeah, but we worked on that together.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Roddy, taekwondo bitch.
Okay.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: We worked on that together. And at the time, I was getting ready to also direct a production of the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime with a theater company.
And Catherine had kind of asked me, she was like, would I be crazy to audition for that with you? And I was like, no, you wouldn't be crazy at all. Like, come on, audition, please. You're an amazing actress.
She got cast in the leading role of Christopher. We gender swapped it.
And through kind of our mutual experiences working on that show, to my knowledge, I'm one of the first openly autistic people to ever direct that show, which is a show about an autistic person. So that's a little wild.
And through kind of our experience working on that show, we dealt with a lot of ableism and inaccessibility in that space from ignorance, a lack of knowledge, a lack of empathy. And it kind of sparked us to want to kind of launch, essentially, an experiment of how do we create accessible theater, inspired also by the great work that was done on how to dance in Ohio. Um, and so we pretty, uh, we put together a production of much ado about nothing, kind of as the leading part of that experiment of how do we create accessible theater? How do we make theater accessible for neurodivergent and disabled people? Um, we're not perfect. And that production got invited to then do a. Another kind of shorter, revamped version in New York City in August and still bringing in that same idea of let's have accessibility, let's have disability shown on stage and try and tell disability stories inside of not necessarily something that was designed to be a disability story, because Shakespeare didn't write that, going, let's have Beatrice use a cane on stage. But we're still kind of, how do we make that and have it work into the overall theme of the story?
And that's kind of how we met in our journey of, like, accessible theater together. I don't know if you want to expand on any of that.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah, she covered most of it. It was basically just us finding each other, working on theater that has disability at the forefront of the story that's being told, and then figuring out together that it was so difficult to work in these spaces as disabled artists, and then saying, well, we should do something about that. We should try and make it better. And as she said, we are by no means perfect. We are constantly learning about how to make our shows more accessible to other cast and crew, other audience.
And it is very much a learning process that we are working on constantly. But we are also so eager to be working on it. And we found just an interest in learning more about it is already, unfortunately, miles ahead of where a lot of the theater industry is right now.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Trying to think of the next question to ask out of the tin I have in the back black board of my brain.
And so because there's infinite directions we can go, uh, in here.
Why much ado about nothing, uh, by Shakespeare out of his entire.
And I wish I would said my home studio, because I could literally show you the 50 Shakespeare be a play in textbooks. I have adorning one shelf. That's a real ads virgin described it a pathological love for me.
So, yeah, anyway, so why. Why much you do about nothing compared to Hamlet? King learned swapping Romeo and Juliet. Why mudcha do about nothing?
[00:12:37] Speaker C: Um, we were actually originally gonna do Hamlet.
That was our first thought of, like, taking Hamlet, and we had a very interesting disability concept that I still want to do. So I'm not going to talk about it because I don't want other people to steal it. But that's. I'm gonna do that eventually. But we were working on Hamlet, and we kind of realized that we needed to have more fun than Hamlet could because Hamlet's a little depressing of a play.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Oh, really?
Okay. Yeah, Peter definitely should be fun where it can be gone.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: And so Catherine had actually introduced me to much ado because I was not super familiar with the comedies of Shakespeare. I'm a big history girl and read much Ado about nothing. Loved it. And we also kind of both found some really interesting concepts inside of much ado in the way it does look at kind of gender dynamics and the concept of whether or not you believe someone, because it's kind of like a very crucial part of the play in my reading of it, of whether or not someone actually believes the thing that somebody's telling them. And that's a huge thing for disability, for living as a woman. Our show also has we gender swapped Benedict. So we have a queer couple as our main couple. So also in that belief is also a huge part in that community as well.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: And so looking, I would recommend reading twelve night if you're interested in exploring that concept. Deep and sorry to 12th night. Not 12th night. 12th night and agile are my two favorite accommodates. Uh, but continue.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: Yeah, um, I am a little familiar with felt night. Um, and the gender swapping aspect is something that I think I would get along with a lot. But, um, yeah, that was kind of the big thing about why we chose much of do. If you want to add anything more.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Onto that, I think you covered it very well.
[00:15:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: So you bowed both openly autistic and moderately disabled. I'm more familiar, or I've heard the term of the former more than I have the latter moderately disabled. Would you please explain what that means to both of you personally?
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a term that I started using about a year ago. I figured out that I was autistic, and then, like, several months later, I developed a chronic illness. And from there, to be frank, I have had a lot of struggles with being believed about my chronic illness.
So that's something that I'm fairly conscientious about where I disclose and when I choose to disclose it. So with that, I really enjoy using the term multiply disabled because it kind of encompasses the idea that I'm openly autistic. I also have more stuff going on, but it also allows me to have some level of privacy. It's a really good term that I like to use in spaces that aren't quite as disability friendly as this one is. So I have a lot of, a lot more control about who knows what.
And it gives me more autonomy, which I really enjoy.
[00:16:44] Speaker C: I kind of borrowed the term from Katherine because I identified as openly autistic around since November of last year, even though I've been diagnosed longer than that. But that was when I really started kind of coming into that. Working on curious incident kind of helped me come into that identity.
And then fairly recently, over the past couple of months, I've developed a chronic illness, which is just kind of funny that we both had that experience very close to each other, very different chronic illnesses. But.
And so Katherine's been using that title for a long time, and I kind of borrowed it from her because I felt like in a very similar way of what she said. It also fitzhe my experience, especially while I'm still in the process of figuring out exactly what is going on with me and what exactly is the disability I'm dealing with on that side of things. It's a really good kind of umbrella term. When also diagnosis and disabilities can change as you uncover more about what actually is going on with your body, at least in the terms of physical disabilities.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: I have cerebral palsy, and I referred to it as the operating system of my body.
I have nine other disabilities, none that are as obvious as cerebral palsy. So I just find a cute, funny way to talk about it and describe it. Uh, okay, so what got you into theater?
Cause for me, it was when my parents took me to see, no particular order, cats, the phantom of the opera, and Les Miserables. And then I was hooked. The birds. Well, Shakespeare I saw was a winter's tail. Didn't understand one iota, but that looked fantastic.
Uh, twelve night watch just went right over my head.
What, at age ten doesn't go right over your head? So that's my introduction to musicals and to a classical played. What about you?
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Um, for me, I actually got into theater just by doing it. I'd always had kind of a mild interest in it for most of my life. And then, um, what made it mild?
[00:20:05] Speaker A: That's very interesting. That because I like. Okay, what makes it my old.
Okay, continue on. I'm getting large in language. Forgive me.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: No, I've been kind of curious about it for much of my life. I just hadn't had the opportunity to try it yet. And then in 8th grade, I learned about a local teen Shakespeare company that was in my hometown, and I did an acting class with them just for.
[00:20:51] Speaker C: The heck of it.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: And I completely fell in love.
I started acting regularly and from there, I got more into tech, and except for, like, a brief pandemic hiatus, I've just kind of never stopped doing it. It's always been.
It's been a way of exploring a part of myself and the world that I haven't found an opportunity to explore in any other area of my life. And I've met some of my closest friends and chosen family through it.
Yeah.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: Yeah. My. My, like, theater story is not kind of the traditional I found it as a kid and, like, fell in love with it story, because I was kind of. All throughout high school, I was really, really into film and filmmaking and directing film, and that's what I decided I wanted to go to school for when I went to college. And then senior year of high school, I somehow stumbled onto Hamilton. I don't know how one stumbles onto Hamilton, but I did, and that kind of just opened the floodgates of the theater rabbit hole, because from Hamilton, I found spring awakening, and then it just kind of, like, went down that, and I decided, okay, I'm gonna go to school and do film and do theater.
And because I was doing film.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: How did you make it through school doing to labor intensive rabbit holes? Upon rabbit holes. Upon rabbit holes. Did you hide any icebergs while you were trapped in the oceanic rabid hoax?
I mean, wow. I have extreme respect for you. Somehow making it out of school a lot.
[00:22:57] Speaker C: Not a lot of people recognize that film and theater as a double degree is actually very difficult. A lot of people think, like, oh, those two things make sense together.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Yeah, they do.
[00:23:06] Speaker C: But the departments don't always talk to each other, and sometimes there's weird beef, which is kind of the issue I ran into.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: That is why I'm literally freaking out with joy that you want. He wanted somehow, because, let's be real, to me, that sounds like an absolute creative nightmare. That sounds good on paper, really good. In a fever dream of multiple fever dreams, terrible in execution, no event. But I'm just so happy that you made it through.
[00:23:58] Speaker C: I mean, I'm kind of a little bit insane when it comes to how much work I put into things. So me doing two very labor intensive creative degrees at the same time was kind of par for the course for me. I do not know how I survived it, looking back on it, but I.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Kind of got the end. So please write a memoir.
[00:24:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll have to figure it out. I really enjoyed doing both, though. I really enjoyed doing both because it kind of split the creativity. But doing film directing is how I ended up going into theater directing. And then I graduated in 2020, and so. Worst time in the world to graduate with a film and a theater double degree when there's a massive panic.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: So I had to kind of take a forced break from theater and from film, and kind of in that break, I found myself being drawn a lot more to theater than film. I still love film, but kind of my two art forms have to kind of rotate out for my brain now. And so kind of from there, I decided to just start producing my own theater shows and trying to get opportunities to do theater, and it's just kind of taken off from there. And that's my theater journey.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: I have no follow up, your honor.
So, uh, yeah, so let's talk about.
Well, again, the. There's now 15 questions I have to choose from. Uh, well, let's go back to how to dance in Ohio.
Like I asked Nicole in every episode I did, uh, in that series, is why do you think it was right now, at this time, that Broadway decided to begin to wise up, find its creative, for lack of a better term, cojones, and actually do something good?
How to dance in Ohio, for the one or two people who don't know, it's based on a 2013 documentary that came out in 2015 of the same name. And I'd say for the one or two people who don't know, because I literally mentioned that every episode I talked to about the musical.
Why do you think it would right now, in the midst of adapting to a pandemic restructuring of how we tell and consume stories, that Broadway finally said, yeah, we should do that, but we should also do it, right.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: That's a good question. Yeah, I think that's a good question.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Let's be honest. Like I told Nicole had at any other Time Lord, we would have typed tads.
This show broadens. Someone famous, not name dropping anyone, someone without disability.
Pretend you have autism for a few hours every day. Let's make magic. Except on stage.
Why do you think it would now that Broadway would like. No, that's the easy way out. We know that way. Let's do something different.
I mean, sorry for getting so excited, but it's just mind boggling to me.
[00:28:51] Speaker C: Yeah, no, we're both, like, really passionate about representative representation and big fans of how the dance in Ohio. So it's a great question.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: I've spoken with a couple people as well that worked on the show, and one of the things that I am under the impression of and also give everyone who worked on that show so much credit for, is it really seems like a lot of the people above the line, like Sammy Cannell, the director, made such a clear effort of saying that either we're going to do this right or we're not going to do it.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: Wow.
Wow. Well, I mean, that's great to hear and great to know whether my impression.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Is right or wrong, only they can corroborate that. Yeah, but that's very much kind of the understanding that I have around it. And I do give everyone involved so much credit for taking that firm stance on it. And the other aspect that I am completely hypothesizing here is that the pandemic brought disability to a much greater forefront because of long Covid and all of the other disabilities that the pandemic created that people are now having to be more aware of.
I'm just under the impression that disability as a general topic has been a little bit of a greater conversation than usual and accessibility with people having to work from home and that kind of thing over the past four years. So maybe that's made people more receptive to it. I don't know. I'm hypothesizing at this point.
[00:30:42] Speaker C: Yeah. I also. I read an interview with Sammy where she said, like, we're having autistic people or we're not doing this at all, which I do think having people in those positions of power was what kind of led to that happen? Because it would have been very easy and like you said, not surprising at all if that hadn't happened. Having actually autistic people on stage playing autistic characters has been the exception, not the rule, historically, because you look at the example of curious, sensitive dog in the nighttime as kind of a good mix. That show won so many awards for someone pretending to be autistic on stage eight times a week and never casted an openly autistic person, even though publicly there's known of at least one openly autistic person. Mickey Rowe wrote in his book said that he did audition for the touring production of the show and they did not cast him.
And I think there is a culture shift. I think we have a lot more, a lot longer of a journey to go based on kind of the general representation or reception of Ohio from the non disabled community, because the disabled, the autistic community, were so behind the show and we're so excited about it. Like you said, you saw it six times. We saw it twice.
Everyone who, like, really loved that show, loved that show, and everyone who worked on it talks just like it was an incredible experience.
And I'm so happy they all had that experience too, because that's not a lot of the experience I've had in some theaters as an autistic person.
And I'm very glad it was that space for them. But I think there's kind of. This is the door that opened, but the door needs to be open a lot wider. And hopefully it opens the crack in the door so that more change can happen. And not just on Broadway stages, but also on like, community theater level stages. Having it be unacceptable to not cast an autistic person as Christopher in the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime. Like, there's no reason why you can't do that in 2024, except for not wanting to.
Because there are multiple resources you can find to be able to have accessibility.
I don't know if that really answers your question about why now, but that's kind of my thoughts on disability representation in Ohio, kind of where I think it'll lead the industry.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad that Sammy and the team stuck to their guns, to use very weird phrase.
I'm even more glad that Broadway legend to them being firm, because I'm trying to remember when I kids came out 1415 somewhere around there. So if we have kids there, and the documentary had just been shot and was gonna release the next year, and then we, ten years later, that's a decade that's not.
That's both. Not a lot of time and also a lot of time.
And.
Yeah, but no, there are things we can only speculate on.
I had never seen a show six times before. The music really hooked me. And it was just the playfulness and the sergeness and the how did I. Normative romance that.
I mean, when you first see it, you have no idea which way it's going to go. It also helped that they didn't release the soundtrack. And so I kept going to hear the music until they released the soundtrack. And then I was afraid in the back of my mind, well, what if they don't release that soundtrack?
How will I get to hear these sounds? Here, take my money. Take my money.
The soundtrack. I keep going. Jacob is really, uh, a great composer in that regard.
The whole creative team is stellar, but so insensible theater, because we could easily talk. Forget 5 hours. Let's go full 24 hours to try to unpack one sliver of the ginormous iceberg that is on sensible theta.
How and where do we begin to unpack that topic? And what strides need to be made to move the needle even this much?
[00:37:02] Speaker B: I mean, that's such a great question.
[00:37:05] Speaker A: Thank you, Todd. As I said, I have anywhere from 5 hours to all weekend long.
My computer is plugged in. I won't stay glued to Vince chair listening to you. Too tall and I'll somehow find a way not to sleep for three days.
Go captain, go. Run like the wind.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: I view this issue as being having like two major sides that are completely intertwined with each other. On the one hand, there is making sure that what is shown on stage is accurate representation in terms of the actors are actually disabled, the writers are disabled, the director was disabled, that, like all of the thoughts and process comes from some level of lived experience.
The flip side of that though, is that in order to accomplish all of that, you have to create a room that is accessible for those people with those disabilities.
And I think that it's a process of taking incremental steps on both sides. Because if you take steps on making the room more accessible, you're gonna have more disabled people with lived experience and vice versa.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: Shock there.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: I know, right?
Yeah, but yeah, I think that's where a lot of it comes from, is that none of this is going to be solved overnight. Nothing is going to magically get better in a week. No, but if we're all regularly taking smaller steps of saying, I don't know how to make this area of the rehearsal process accessible in this way, but I can learn how, or I can brainstorm with someone who knows more about it than I do, you're going to get more disabled artists involved. That is going to give better representation. And that representation is going to create a clearer platform that people will understand the process and problems better, which will allow them to create better accessibility. And I view it as a cycle in that regard that is difficult to figure out how to enter the cycle. It's kind of a chicken or egg problem, but if we keep going along that cycle regularly and consistently, that's how we get somewhere. And I think that's what plays like Ohio really demonstrated, is they focused a ton on making sure that the actors were actually autistic, that they had autistic people at every phase of the process, making sure that what the audience saw was accurate to the lived experience, and they did a phenomenal job of it. And now people know more about that topic.
[00:40:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree with everything Katherine said, but I think kind of the problem that I've noticed kind of running into it is that a lot of the conversation tends to be about, let's make sure openly disabled characters are played by disabled actors. And like 100% not discarding that need at all. But I think part of the way we make that happen is by putting disabled people above the line and in positions of power. Director, stage manager, producer, orchestra. Anything else you can think of that's not an actor. A disabled person could also do that.
And I think kind of a unique problem that I've noticed as someone who's a director and not an actor and an openly autistic director is that there's this weird kind of dichotomy in the rehearsal room that I've never quite figured out of. How do I be my authentic autistic self while still having respect from the actors in the room?
And I've never. I don't have the perfect answer for that. But I think kind of that's indicative of a larger problem of. That's part of the reason why I think we don't see a lot of more openly disabled people in positions of power, is because the way society looks at disabled people is, oh, you're disabled, so you can't have a position of power. And then if you do, oh, well, you must be faking your disability, because now you have too much authority and no way a disabled person can do that. And I think the greater problem is a societal problem, which is a lot harder to fix than just a microcosm of theater. But theater is indicative of society.
And it starts with the way we look at disabled people and at our abilities to tell our own stories.
Because I go back to kind of the experience of directing curious incident, which that show was written by a non autistic person. The original book was written by a non autistic person. Both of those authors have openly said, no, we never intended to make Christopher autistic. He just happened to have every DSM five criteria to be autistic. And they never kind of. That was kind of the way that production team back in 2015, when that show first went on to Broadway slash the West End, they were like, oh, well, Christopher. They never say Christopher's autistic. So it's okay to not have an autistic person in that role, but that's perpetuating the idea that you can't.
That you can't have somebody who is openly autistic play this role more authentically, and you take it another level and you have an openly autistic director.
I know I saw things in that show that somebody who's not autistic wouldn't have picked out just because I have a different lived experience and the ways in which a lot of people in that room who were not receptive to disability, and especially people who were kind of above me, decision makers, wouldn't listen to the things I had to say, not just about my disability, but about the potentially disabled members of the audience and fighting for kind of Catherine's right. As an actor who had multiple disabilities and multiple access needs, the ways in which kind of. They purposefully chose not to listen to us, I think is kind of an example of the bigger problem that needs to be solved. And I don't think it's great to have people who are not disabled who are saying, no, we need disabled people in these roles. We need to have disabled people here, because there aren't disabled people in those positions of power. But I think if we get disabled people into those positions of power, then we don't have to rely on the non disabled people that are doing kind of the right thing of advocating for us. We're able to advocate for ourselves.
[00:44:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't really know how to.
[00:44:30] Speaker C: Solve those problems, but that's kind of the way I think we need to. That's where I think we need to get to that. That was a very good way of saying that. But.
[00:44:40] Speaker A: It happens. I ramble on this part. That's not that I'm setting that. You were rambling. Sometimes the bed answer doesn't always make the modes clear consent. Another recent example that's even more prominent than the Kyrie incident is the title character in Dear Evan Hansen. It's never stated that what Evans disorder or disability is, but it is clearly obvious, strongly hinted at that it's at the very least.
Sorry. Adrenaline anxiety disorder. I almost did generalized artistic disorder would like.
And I should say that that's not a thing. I was making fun of.
Incorrect speech. Vauxhall, Pa.
But ladies, I hope it's not a thing anywhere.
So.
But yeah, I'm being.
And I mean, you can go into classic musicals like the phantom of the opera rider, trauma diagnosis there very easily. You can write one about wicked, you can write one about x, y, z show. I think having it generalized into non sensitive, don't know if I said that correctly, can be appealing to theta go odds and actors, director characters, etcetera. Because it's almost like. And I hate to use this analogy, it's almost like, oh, choose your own adventure here.
It's like. And I get the appeal of that.
But now, no, sometimes you can't do that. And it's like, no, I didn't expect us to all have a brain section and have some universal epiphany on several about how to revolutionize unacceptable data intended into accessible data. We need like a gajillion Nicoles to do that.
Go back to that episode. Go watch it, people. Kids. Amazing.
And so it's like, okay, so there's not going to be any big insight, but maybe insights don't need to be big to get the ball rolling because I'm sure not knowing, uh, Sammy, all the creative team at that level, I'm sure, uh, ten years ago, 15 years ago, no one, even if the documentary was already out, no one would.
People would have been like, that's a great idea. We're not there yet. Uh, no one will want to do that. I mean, it's been done and I'm still scratching my head, how did we get that done? How did that get into blow away? How would that not regulated to off of lord way in the ocean?
Because it just doesn't seem feasible, but it is. And so what are some small steps? Because I'm sure if we were to call the creative team, they would tell about the small steps that inspired and empowered them to get to that journey of being firm, that we either do this right or we don't do it at all. And I know I just assumed a lot, but what do you think of some take away that are feasible to do in the short term that might inspire Ladsteen change to move the needle? Should dad? To where more change can happen year after year after year?
[00:51:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that kind of the biggest step is that people who are in positions of power need to kind of face their own ableism that they have. That is because of the way society portrays disabled people. But I think they need to look at their own ableism and kind of where that's coming from and confront that. So that, that if an openly autistic director came up to them, interviewed to direct a show, pitched a show, they don't immediately kind of, whether intentionally or unintentionally, say, no, I don't want to work with that person because they're autistic.
And I think that idea also extends to people that may not be open about their autism either, because specifically with autism, because it's for some people like myself, it can be invisible and I can choose to mask, which is a privilege in and of itself. But there are some things that when I talk to somebody about directing a show, even if I don't tell them that I'm autistic, there are some things that non autistic people just kind of inherently clock and they can't always, like, put it in the back of their head of like, oh, I don't like this person because they're autistic, but it's, oh, I don't like this person because they won't make eye contact with me. I don't like this person because they have a weird tonal regulation.
So I think people that are in kind of those decision making positions.
[00:52:48] Speaker A: Weird tonal regulation. What's that said with a speech impediment?
I can't simply try to lighten the mood.
Budge. In a way, you would sing.
[00:53:09] Speaker C: Yeah, we need to lighten the mood because sometimes what we're talking about is heavy and depressing. Sometimes.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: But I mean, not hamlet level depression.
Usually not that depressing. But. But give us a few drinks and we'll get there. I mean, it's. Judge. I'm tough, but yeah, no. Uh, yeah. I mean, mad skin in and of itself can be a. I would then say bloodshed. I meant privilege.
But it can also be a nightmare having to do it constantly and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And that went from a non autistic. I can't imagine how. What a mind field it is to just try to deadpan while also showing emotion, while also keeping the screaming internal.
Internal. And not like, okay.
It's like, so, I mean, and that's just what little I know about mad skin. Uh, but, yeah, no, it's so.
We love dogs at tonal.
Different.
[00:54:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Um, I think a lot of people kind of, um, unintentionally, like, clock those things. Even if somebody's not open about, um.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: Their disability, they'll notice weird judges make sense.
It may not be off putting consciously, but it's out of place. And so then it's like, huh, that doesn't make sense. It's that person. Okay. Etc. Etc. So.
[00:55:36] Speaker C: And I just think that people need to be a little bit more aware of when kind of their own internal biases are doing things like that. It's a very hard thing to learn and to unlearn more and. But I think if people who are in positions of power kind of look at those things a little bit more, that's kind of a small step that they can take in the direction of creating more accessible rooms. And in my experience, once you kind of get one or two disabled people in there, like, we'll kind of shove the door open for the rest of us because we know how hard it is to get in the room.
Yeah.
[00:56:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I think everything that Megan just said is very important. And I think that in addition to that, there's this misconception that creating an accessible room means doing all of these big, huge technological advances. That's going to cost a. A lot of money and time, and that's not typically reality.
Yes, you can do a lot of that, but there are also an infinite number of steps that you can take that cost little to no time and money that work on creating an accessible room. Like for our rehearsal spaces, we try and make sure that there is a separate place that cast members know they can go to. Just, like, take a breather if they need to, for any reason.
As Megan mentioned earlier, I am a part time mobility aid user, and I frequently use a cane on stage. And I think that we were both a little nervous about trying to block with that in mind when I first started using it, especially because I am a movement based actor. So that was a learning process for both of us. And we both figured out very quickly that it was not hard at all.
It affects maybe two small things in each show, and it's just so many things aren't as big a deal as people expect them to be. They're much easier, they're much less time consuming, and that if you start adding up those smaller steps, it makes a huge difference already that either you don't need the large technological advances, or they become a lot less necessary.
It's just being accessible is much easier than people realize. And I think that it's the concept that scares people off more than the.
[00:58:17] Speaker C: Actual execution, and I'd love to add on to that.
The thing I think a lot of people don't realize is that accessibility is not just a disability thing.
Accessibility can apply to literally everyone. Kind of a great example from when we were working on curious incident.
A week before tech, one of our leading actors had emergency gallbladder surgery.
And I told her, like, okay, if you can't do the show, let me know. But she said, no, I can. I'm like, okay, if you and your doctor both agree that you can do the show, you can do the show. What do you need from me to make this accessible for you? And she's like, okay, I can't lift anything heavy, and I can't bend down because that's difficult for me right now. I was like, okay, cool. We changed, like, two things in the show, and because we had already kind of established this room of accessibility in the forefront, it was not hard. And I hope nobody has emergency gallbladder surgery right before a show all the time. But it's one of those things that nobody can predict to be able to kind of pre build accessibility for. And it helps somebody who's not disabled when they became temporarily disabled due to a medical emergency.
And it can kind of.
There's so many examples of the way accessibility can be for more than just disabled people.
[00:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So lunch shift dudes for 8 seconds. I introduced both of you at the top of the show. Ads, openly artistic.
What was that, Johnny like? Because ads we've alluded to, uh, ingesttain the.
Well, the only reason I bring that up is we've alluded that not everyone is openly or didstic for regions that they're all their own and are completely valid.
But it's like, I'll bring you back to my disability. Cerebral palsy without the speech impediment, which I refer to as an accent. You would have to be a medical doctor to really figure out I have cerebral palsy. My voice didn't come in until age seven and have to count Liz years of speech therapy. I was talking about this on another episode. I would rather people ask me, hey, why do you talk like that? Than assume one of, if not more of the following.
I'm always drunk, I'm always on drugs, or I'm somehow not completely here.
I mean, it's.
I'm a disabled advocate by trade. I run a video, cats and podcasts on disability. I can see an empowerment, not to be completely frank, but also to completely be frank. If I can't be, if I get offended by that question, I'm going to be shit at my job. Bold. Stop. Now that judge me.
Cerebral palsy is different than autism being autistic, but yet there seems to be nonsense to be. There are these pervasive stereotypes around autism and autistic people of Dean, and I'm quite sure you've heard them all before. More than I will ever see them. Savant, unfriendly, unfeeling, unromantic, un everything.
And, oh, you think you're better than everyone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, if they weren't so damaging and so tragic and so off fucking babes, they would be drop dead hilarious. And again, it's all coming from a person who isn't all tid stick. I cannot fathom.
My ex hue is a tid stick. May Lord, what would you. What did you like?
Having you not having, but discovering your artistic, discovering the pervasive stereotypes that are so obeyed that will haunt you no matter how. What you are, what you do now, what you are, who you are what you do. And I mean gods, that's something I don't think it's talked about enough of. How? I mean, I mentioned that mad skin can be a privilege to agree with you, Megan, but it can also be a fucking nightmare.
And that also judging talks about enough people should consume the absolute watch. And so what is it like discovering the dinosis, making it a part of your perfection and making advocacy and theater representation?
How does it all not neatly tie together in a pink bow? Uh, not that, but if you could give the journey of some of what it is like kids, not to get really personal, but I'm also really curious about that whole journey of. And it doesn't have to be a straight line, nothing ever is. But it's just like it's not talked about enough. And I hope you joke, I asked all that and that I want to encourage these topics to be talked about because the more and more they are, the less scary weird of putting strange, etc. Etc. They become. And the more normalized. I hate that word. But the more normalized they become and the red scary they become.
[01:06:55] Speaker C: And I like, I appreciate the way you worded that question as well because I think kind of it's a thing that only disabled people really understand about each other is the idea that we will never truly understand the experience of someone else's disability.
I don't understand the experience of your disability in the same way that you don't understand the experience of mine. Catherine and I kind of understand each other's a little bit more, but there's still interest in parts of it that we don't fully understand about each other. And I think that's a thing that a lot of non disabled people don't get.
But I can go first on my autism journey.
[01:07:33] Speaker B: Go for it.
[01:07:34] Speaker C: Okay.
So I discovered I started having kind of the theory that I was autistic when I was around 24, kind of late 24 coming up on my 25th birthday, and had gone back and forth a lot on whether or not I thought I was autistic because very ironically, I read the criteria in a black and white way, which is an autistic diagnostic criteria, and didn't think I fit it. And then in February of last year, I was kind of officially diagnosed by my therapist. And even after that I wasn't super open about it because I didn't really know a lot about autism advocacy, what it means to be autistic, what is that identity?
And when I met Katherine a few months after that, that kind of started opening the door a little bit more because it was like, ooh, autistic friend.
And it was someone else who had a very similar experience to me in kind of coming into her autism. And I also didn't really fully realize kind of what the autistic stereotypes were and what the state of theatre was for autistic people at all at the time because it wasn't a community I was a part of.
And kind of my biggest exposure to autism growing up was kind of generically being around some autistic people growing up who were kind of present more stereotypically autistic, which people do. Stereotypes come from somewhere.
And it wasn't until we started working on curious incident in the fall of last year that I started really kind of connecting to my autism identity when looking into that show and doing research on having act representation in that show and kind of diving into what that show was representing for me and the way I was looking at it as an autistic person.
And while working on that show, I had to kind of.
I got faced with kind of the question of, do I let the cast know that I'm autistic? And do I let the public know that I'm autistic?
And there was kind of a very key moment when we were getting ready to be interviewed for the theater times, talking about the show and our experiences, autistic people working on it, where I was kind of faced with the question of, okay, do I want to be open about my autism in this way? And the kind of thing I struggled with. But eventually, kind of the reason I decided to be open about my autism was because I've never met another openly autistic theater director.
I couldn't name one off the top of my head. And most people in this country could not name one off the top of their head unless they happened to be friends with one.
And I essentially decided to do it because I don't want anyone else to have felt kind of as lonely as I did and to have to deal with how hard it is to have to try and create a career and create a profession that is already incredibly difficult for people who aren't disabled and for people who aren't autistic. It's already a difficult career path to then make it twice as difficult cult by having a disability on top of it and making it a part of my theatrical identity.
But I kind of made that active choice of, I'm going to do this to be the representation that I don't have in the hopes that somebody else will not have to ask themselves this question again.
And that's kind of been my, like, driving force in being an openly autistic director, even when that does sometimes cause setbacks that I don't think I would have had if I wasn't open about my autism.
Yeah.
[01:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah. For me, I am also late diagnosed.
I was diagnosed around 20 years old, and it also came from me learning more about autism, saying, hold up, I have a lot of these traits that's describing me. And especially learning about all of the stereotypes that you were just mentioning that get attributed to autistic people that especially as a woman growing up, I did get called a lot of those stereotypes.
[01:12:38] Speaker A: Oh, I can go on and on with negative.
I don't like saying that or even thinking that. But, yeah, I mean, we haven't even touched on the differentiation between how prevalent the autism diagnosis is in males compared to females versus onset versus late. And then you get into the intersectionalities of gender. Genders. And then, yeah, it's juds. I mean, yeah, go on.
[01:13:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And that was a lot of what.
[01:13:40] Speaker A: I realized, I think too much.
[01:13:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a lot of what I realized impacted me growing up is that a lot of my autistic traits got attributed to just being a bitch, basically. I don't know how else to put it, of, like, oh, she's too assertive. She is too blunt, except, like, negative.
[01:14:09] Speaker C: For all of those.
[01:14:12] Speaker B: And then finally realizing, oh, a lot of undiagnosed autistic women get called those things because we don't typically subscribe to social cues, whether that's either them totally going over our heads in the first place, or I noticed it. I just don't care.
And so, yeah, I finally kind of discovered autism on my own and then eventually got a diagnosis that just going through the diagnostic process was a whole thing because a lot of people viewed it as, oh, well, you're a girl, so you just have anxiety.
[01:14:54] Speaker A: Wow, we. We could spend an entire episode just unpacking that you're a girl, so you just have anxiety.
How much do you want to bet the bag said more to young girls than young boys?
How much? How? I mean, wow.
Thank you. Thank you for that.
[01:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So I kind of figured it out on my own. Finally got some validation with having the privilege of getting a diagnosis. And it was several months after that that I met Megan. And. And we very much, as she said, kind of became each other's autistic friends because we went through the journey at a similar time period. And it was during curious incident that I made the conscientious decision to be open about it. And a lot of that is, I have always been a big advocate. It has varied what my topic is at any given moment. But the concept of speaking out for voices that, that need to be heard more, that has always been a huge part of my life. And dealing with all of the stereotypes around autism, dealing with some of the stereotypes that like got attributed to me after I came out to people as autistic. I lost multiple professional and personal relationships with people that previously had liked me for many years. And then I said, hi, I'm autistic. And suddenly the relationship wasn't working.
With all of that struggle, I realized how important it was to me to try and be someone that is overturning some of those stereotypes and pointing out that you don't have to be a cis white young boy to be autistic. Like autism can be a part of anyone, literally anyone. And there is such a high prevalence of for people who don't fall into the cis white young boy stereotype, getting under diagnosed, it getting misdiagnosed as a personality disorder or just too aggressive or any number of things that become personality flaws often rather than, rather than what it is, autism.
It became really important to me to do that advocacy and working through curious incident with Megan and a lot of what she mentioned we went through on that was what really cemented the deal for me on realizing that I want to be open about this and I don't think I could have done it without someone in my corner. I think that us going through it together and I, and going through a lot of those struggles together was a big part of it, at least for me.
And yeah, it has created problems. It has created challenges that I wouldn't otherwise have encountered. But I also have no regrets about it because it has been already the impact that I have seen happen on audience members, that some of the shows that we've done on people who have reached out to one or both of us at various times has proven to me how much this work is needed and how thrilled I am to get to be a part of it.
[01:19:01] Speaker A: Well, we have 9 hours to go, ladies. Buckle up. I'm joking. But I really do hope that both of you will come back soon because you're always welcome and an absolute pleasure to talk to and geek out with about disability data and likewise, etc. Etc. Etc.
In order to wrap up the epic. So there are two questions I always do to close out. One, engage. There are any expiring actors I know Chuck, are inspiring, theater directors I know shock all of inspiring daredevils that are double major in both film and theater.
I still don't know how you made it through school reads ride your memoir reads writing soon.
But anyway, if there are any inspiring legislators of yours who want to make the creative arts or judge so that they did see their path, what would be some advice you would give them?
[01:20:55] Speaker C: Oh, man, that's a good question because they're both speechless.
[01:20:59] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:21:02] Speaker B: I think that some of the first advice that comes to my head is I don't feel like self care is talked about enough in this industry, and it is a difficult industry. It is difficult because of the way the industry itself is structured from a logistical standpoint. And just the act of constantly creating is hard. Like, creation is so much fun and there's a reason we do it, but it also is draining.
And it's so important that you take care of yourself, that you learn how to do it in a way that is sustainable for you. And this goes especially for disabled artists.
And that it is way easier said than done. I'm still figuring it out. I don't know entirely how to do it yet either.
But, yeah, it's really important that you're able to do this work in a way that feels good for you as an individual, that brings you joy, and.
[01:22:12] Speaker C: That.
[01:22:14] Speaker B: You'Re able to do it as a fully rounded, fully realized person and that it will always be there for you.
It's okay to take breaks. It's okay to step away if that's what you need to do for a little while. But take care of yourself, because we all love it. We're all crazy for doing this, and it will always be there to welcome you back.
[01:22:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely agree with everything Katherine has to say because I'm still very much learning how to not take too much on my plate, but kind of a really great piece of advice that I heard from someone else. So I'm completely just regifting this. But is the idea of.
There's this great quote from Anne Bogarthe, who I absolutely adore her as a theater director, where she talks about the concept of holding onto your seat, which is this concept that I believe originally came from, like, horseback riding. But the idea is that when things get difficult and when things get really hard, don't throw in the towel, hold on to your seat, because you will make it through and you will be glad you did. And in every theatrical production I've ever done, I have to remind myself of that, because we all get to that point of, like, okay, this is bad. This sucks. It's never going to be good, and then it always comes out at the end. But I think that's also kind of a good way to look at life and to look at careers and to look at kind of everything is that life goes in a path of ups and downs. And just because maybe things aren't happening right now or aren't happening the way you want them to be, hold on to your seats. Stay there. Keep going through, because if you keep going through, you will get where you want to be eventually.
[01:24:16] Speaker A: Thank you. And I like to think that both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to engage or discover their own disabilities listen and watch this program and other groups within those groups. But I'm not naive enough to think that both groups and groups within those groups take away the same things from every episode. And we've talked about a lot of topics in big sub episode, and as I just said, we only have 9 hours to go. Uh, iceberg. Uh, but in, in terms of the topics we did. Scottsden, part one, what would be what you will want advocates with disabilities to take away from everything we've talked about? And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover and embrace their own disabilities take away from everything we've talked about?
[01:25:57] Speaker C: I mean, I think kind of a really big thing for kind of anyone who's in the disability advocacy community to know and to take away is that you're not alone. And it's not just you. Unfortunately, we've kind of all experienced our fair share of ableism in this industry, which I wish we didn't, but we did. And I think it's really important to know that kind of you are not alone in doing this, and you have a community that has your support and has your back for people that kind of are still discovering their disability, I think knowing that it's okay to not know what your journey is and that disability journey can happen in so many different ways, and to kind of go on that path looks different for everybody. And you don't have to be open about it if you're not comfortable with that. It's not a requirement of the job by any means.
And I think I would add kind of one more category of people onto there of anyone who's not disabled.
To just believe us when we tell you something and to listen to us, I think is kind of my additional third answer to the question you didn't ask.
[01:27:18] Speaker B: For other disability advocates.
You totally stole my answer.
I think that that's a big part of it that we're not alone in this. And also, we're both young and we've got on board this whole disability advocacy thing really quickly after discovering our own.
[01:27:42] Speaker A: Disabilities, and not everyone does.
[01:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's okay too. It's a very personal thing for how you as an individual want to relate to your disabled identity, and that's totally valid.
But there really is a movement happening, and I think I that we are examples of a new generation of disability advocates that are coming in.
And that gives me hope on some level that I know disability advocates of so many different ages, of different generations, and we are all working towards the same goal. So the movement is continuing. And that, that brings me joy to know. And for the second part of your question, for those who are still discovering their disabilities, whether I actually interpreted that a different way than you did, which I find fascinating because I think of disability as to throw a fun fact in there. It is the only marginalized community that anyone can join at any time, and that if everyone lives long enough, everyone is going to become disabled at some point. It's part of the natural aging process of being a human.
[01:29:08] Speaker A: Fun fact. Wait, that sounds depressing. Like Hamlet level depression. Throw it back to jakes.
Rudely correct.
[01:29:23] Speaker B: Well, and with that, disability is a human issue. It applies to everyone. And that is something that I would love more people to bear in mind, whether that is what Megan said. People are still just kind of discovering their own disability, even if they haven't found all of the words for it yet, or for people who are currently non disabled, that you too will become disabled if you live long enough.
It is a thing for everyone. Most people become temporarily disabled at some point because they break their leg and end up in a cast for a little while, or they go through surgery or whatever else. It is a human issue, not a marginalized community issue, and it affects everyone. And the best place that you can start from with understanding that is respecting the fact that it affects everyone and it affects everyone differently. And yeah, that. That is my big point with it.
[01:30:26] Speaker A: So engage anyone wants to get in contact with you about accessible data or other topics, or maybe even support your work.
What is the bad way to do that?
[01:30:47] Speaker C: I love talking about accessible theater all the time, and I'm always open to having those conversations.
I have a professional Instagram that is Megan Loomis. It's just my name together and also a website which is meganlumis.com, so also just my name together. Either of those ways are great ways to reach out to me.
[01:31:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I also have a professional Instagram into my name, Katherine McCracken Kathryn is spelled with a k and if anyone is curious like to hear more about my thoughts on this matter. I also have my own podcast, breaking boundaries, accessible paths and theater for disabled artists.
So for anyone who is like me and sometimes get freaked out about reaching out to random people you don't know, you can listen there too. And also like Megan, I love talking about this, so I welcome anyone reaching out to me.
[01:31:45] Speaker A: I would love to continue this discussion on your podcast if you are interested, putting that out there and I want to thank you both, particularly you Megan, for cold matching me and really inviting itself on podcast.
It has been a delight, one that I hope continues. And I hope again, it's kids, pod one and all, on the going to Skudgeon about how to make Theta more accessible. Because you're both right. We have a long way to go and it's really shameful that it's 2024 and we have a gazillion miles to go in terms of making a vital, important creativity outlet like Theta adds accessible ads it not only needs but should I be?
And I look forward to continuing that conversation with you two and following your what I hope are very successful careers.
And I hope you both know that you always have a play onage podcast. Again, thank you so much for reaching out, for being as forthcoming and as vulnerable and open onage podcasts as you have. And I wish you both, uh, the best of luck and have a wonderful weekend ahead of you.
[01:34:15] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having us.
[01:34:26] Speaker A: You have been listening to disability empowerment. Now I would like to thank my guests, you originally and the Disability Empowerment team that made this episode possible.
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