[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to Disability Empowerment now season four. I'm your host, Keith Murphy de Gancini. Today I'm talking to Alex Evans and Lucy Wood, the co host of the. The UK Disability podcast label. Guys, welcome to the show.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Hi, Keith. Thanks for having us.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: Yes, thank you so much.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: So we've been playing email tag for the better part of a year.
How did you find or become aware of Disability Empowerment now? Because I, I haven't made it over to the UK and met you two in person like I normally do.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: That's going to take quite a bit of sort of memory trawling, I think.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Quite a while ago, wasn't it?
[00:01:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I have a habit of finding myself lying awake at night and trawling social media for other disability podcasts just to kind of see what else is out there, what other people are doing and, you know, just kind of get. Getting a feel for kind of the, the industry and the area. And I, I suspect that that's probably how we came across you, Keith. I know that we were. We did some messaging on what was Twitter again. Probably. Yeah. A year ago.
It's taken us a while to get this set up.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah, we're very organized.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah. No, Lucy and I were just talking before the episode how time consuming it is to set up Iran podcast and how people who don't do it don't know that.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: It'S like.
It's not a.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: It's not a quick thing, is it? It's not.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Not a quick thing at all. I'm in a closet right now no bigger than a prison cell doing a jackhammering outside my pocket. And so welcome to my dad.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Listen, listen. You got to do what you got to do, haven't you, really? To get. To get the content out.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Exactly. So now we know how we met or haven't met yet. Some.
Sometime I'll make it over to the uk, I swear.
How did you to meet and how did the idea of the podcast originate?
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Should I take this one, Alice?
[00:03:54] Speaker C: Yes, I was just gonna suggest that.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: So I. It was just as the COVID lockdown was hitting in the uk, I was on my way back for my last trip to a museum, knowing that I would be stuck in the house for a very long time. And I just happened to send a tweet out because I'd been thinking about possibly sort starting a podcast, but had not really done anything about it. And I said, would anybody be interested if I was to set up a podcast?
Would anybody listen? And Alice said. Alice got. I didn't me And Alice didn't know one another. I don't even know how you ended up following me, Alice.
[00:04:31] Speaker C: I. I think I was very fresh into the kind of online disability community, and Lucy seemed like somebody I thought was interesting. I had a. All of about four and a half followers, whereas Lucy had, you know, several thousand. So I was.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Who would the hell.
So let me. Let me just give this straight.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: You didn't know each other.
Wow. Oh. Oh, well, that gutsy right there.
That really gutsy. Continue. I'm intrigued.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: So Alice said to me, I. I would be interested in. In starting a podcast. Shall we have a chat? So we set up a Skype call that was only meant to be like half an hour just to see if we liked one another and got on, and it was actually an hour. Yeah. Oh, and it was actually an hour, I think maybe a little bit over an hour.
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: And we just talked and about ideas that we had, and it set other podcasts that we like, the interests we like. So we realized pretty quickly that both Alice and I have an interest in disability representation in the media. We've got a love of history that is quite nerdy. And we also like talking about.
We also like talking about disability. We. We both have jobs that are in the disability sphere, and so we thought, oh, we'll give this a go. It gave us something to do during the COVID lockdown. We spent quite a lot of time sort of setting everything up, talking, talking things through. And then we did like a. We had a week where we did a few test runs with guests and things. And then we decided, yeah, okay, we're gonna do this.
And then our friend Daisy, they got involved. Daisy is a disability historian, so she was on hands to give us advice.
[00:06:46] Speaker C: We. We tried having a go. We do special disability history kind of episodes. Yeah, we had to go doing one ourselves to start with, and it was just. It was just a bit haphazard, to be honest.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Like, we think this is what they used to do, and we're not quite sure. So, yeah, it wasn't great.
[00:07:05] Speaker C: Our research wasn't great. So we wrote Daisy into come and help us with that angle. And yeah, it just kind of went. Went from there, didn't it? But, yeah, we.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: We didn't actually meet in person, did we, until about a year later, two years later.
[00:07:20] Speaker C: I think it was. I think it was a solid 18 months between first kind of chatting and actually getting it together in the job.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And what really amazed. Yeah, what really amazes people is they listen to those early episodes and it's. They always say, oh, you sound like you've been friends for years. We have been friends for years now. But those early days were that it was very. We work very hard on our friendship behind the scenes, as well as setting up a podcast to make it seem off, you know, to. To make each other feel comfortable in each other's company. Because for the first two episodes we recorded, Alice was telling me a lot about her life, and I was telling her a lot about my life. And being able to open up to somebody like that for, you know, an hour or so with only having met a few months ago is. Can be quite daunting. But we found it dead easy, didn't we? And I think our families were quite glad that we found one another because they can just talk about disability issues with each other, so stop bothering them.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: With all of our, ah, nonsense.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: But I always say it's one of the best things I've ever done. Alice has become one of my dear friends. She's part of my inner circle now, so it's one of the best things that could have ever happened to me. The fact we've set up this podcast.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: I still want to know, Alex, who would the hap. Father. Did they have one foot in one foot?
[00:08:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I'm definitely, definitely one of those people with the words. Yeah, I'm definitely one of those people whose followers go up and down just like by one or two all the time.
Yeah.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: So how did you two get interested in disability and disability history?
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Well, go on, Alice, you go with this one.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: I was. I think you sort of fundamentally, it's living with disability. You kind of can't help but being, you know, sort of.
I'm sure there are people out there in the world who do kind of stick their head in the sand a bit, but I think both me and Lucy especially getting in, you know, finding ourselves in the. The work that we both do, you can't help but see the different ways, the different attitudes that people have towards disability, the way people are treated, the way, you know, different barriers that people with different disabilities experience and things like that. And I think Lucy and I both, being the people that we are, both sort of went, particularly when it comes to inequality and injustice. We both, well, this isn't good enough. Why isn't this change? And then it was kind of looking at, you know, that that leads into thinking about representation and thinking about history. And, you know, one of the things that we said we wanted to do with disability history, stuff that we do, is try and Tell some more positive stories about disability history. You know, not, not falling into that inspiration porn sphere, but telling stories, which.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Is the actual term. People. It's the actual term.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: It's not one of Alice's weird sort of things she does on a Friday night.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: People go wide eyed when they hear that. And I'm like, no one is making that up. Like shock value.
[00:11:10] Speaker C: It's a perfect phrase as well because that is exactly that kind of, you know, disabled people being put up as so inspirational and awe inspiring that it's supposed to make non disabled people go, well if that disabled person can, can manage this, then I can do anything.
And I think inspiration porn is a beautiful phrase.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think as well that the, what I like about the history lesson episodes is the fact that so, so much of our disability history lessons are I try and aim it for just the subject matter at, you know, people that you didn't realize were disabled. So we've had Dr. Samuel Johnson, who was the man who created the first dictionary, he had scrofula and have had used to drag himself through the streets as well. Yeah, yeah. And not a lot of people realized that this man was disabled. And yet if it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have dictionaries and things like that. And that's what I quite like to do. Shine a light on these people that made such an impact into the world, on the world who just so happens to be disabled. I think that is an incredibly incredible, empowering message to, to send to people that just because you're disabled doesn't mean you can't, you know, do things that are going to change the world and change society for the better.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: So I was born with cerebral palsy. It's neuromuscular disorder. It's where my fabulous speech comes from.
And you either get it rebirth or by the age of three.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: And if you don't get it by then, you don't have it. It's not transferable, so it doesn't send down the generations.
Although sometimes I would say did in my darker mom.
But so I have never known what it is like to not be disabled.
This path, it's taken several windy roads to get here, but this path was clearly chosen for me in advance.
Long way of saying personal question. Did you acquire your disability later in life or was it preset?
[00:14:17] Speaker A: I was also born with cerebral palsy. It affects my legs and my mobility and my ability to walk. So I use a wheelchair. I know you can't see it in a zoom. Call this is something I've had to get used to post. Post Covid getting used to. It's like saying, I'm also disabled.
Yeah. So I use a wheelchair.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: I'm sorry, my disabled Spidey. Sin.
Wait, I don't have one of those because shocker, that judgent exists.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: There's no gay dar for disability.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: There's a tagline for the show.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: My producer is gonna eat that.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Right.
Your disability. Spidey says he's off because you're sat in a closet. That's why. That's why.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Marvel Disney, please come on. Sponsor the pod.
It's not like I'm a mega van or anything.
Give me a call. Give me a call. Invent the Spidey sense. I'll be your guinea pig.
[00:15:45] Speaker C: Anyway, it would certainly help reduce some diagnosis. Waiting lists.
Bring, bring Keith out. And he could be like, right, well, I know what you've got.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I, I, I sense the problem here. Yeah. Yeah. So I was born. I was born with cerebral palsy, Alice. I don't know if you want to.
[00:16:05] Speaker C: So I have a genetic condition called retinitis pigmentosa, which infects my vision. It's a degenerative condition. So for the first sort of 10 years of my life, I had relatively normal vision, but it's deteriorated as I've gotten older. I've had cataracts removed. I had childhood cataracts, had those removed. And it's like tunnel vision. So my, my vision deteriorates. I will, I suspect, eventually lose my vision completely.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: So between the two of us, we make one sort of healthy human, really.
But, yeah, you know, wow.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: I think, I don't think we always, I always say, don't know about you, Alice, but I. When people ask me about the podcast and you know, what difference it's made to our lives, I always say that it's made me a better disabled person. And by that I mean the people that we speak to in our interview episodes, our standard episodes. It makes you more aware of different impairments and how you can be more sympathetic towards those impairments because for me, like, I don't live with blindness. I don't know what it's like to have a visual impairment. But being friends with Alice has sort of taught me a lot of things.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: She still regularly will share her screen with me on teams course and say, can you see that? And I'm like, no, but that's nothing to do with you regularly.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: I can't, I can't see that. You're going to have to Read it to me.
But it does. I did. I, I genuinely think that it makes me a more compassionate person. Because you, you might not understand it completely, but you get the odd little bit of a jigsaw puzzle of, well, this is what my condition is and this is what I wish people would know. And then I, I hope it's made. I hope every time and every year that passes by, I just get a better friend towards Alice because I go, oh, yeah, she can't, she can't do.
[00:18:08] Speaker C: That because she can't say, eventually, by, by 2037, Lucy will have stopped bothering to share her screen with me and just be like, there's no point, I'll just tell.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: I'll just give you an image description.
She knows that I don't do it maliciously. It's just habit. Going, going. Can you see that? Can everybody see that? You know, and it does, it doesn't.
[00:18:31] Speaker C: Bother me because, you know, I know that it is it. It that for somebody like Lucy, if she does something like that and I just say, no, she will make an adjustment and she will tell me what we're looking at and she will describe images for me. And that element of it comes very second nature to Lucy.
And I think that's one of the things that I sort of hope that the show kind of promotes, is that no one is perfect because everybody's experience of disability, even, you know, you, Keith and Lucy having technically the same diagnosis, your experience is going to be really different.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:09] Speaker C: And, and all, all we can do amongst sort of the disabled community and, you know, the wider community, the wider society is just kind of be conscious of our biases and considerate of other people's barriers and, and that you can never know exactly what a person's going to experience and what their barriers are going to be. And the thing that we're always saying is just ask, just ask us, you know.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Yeah. It's amazing because my voice didn't come in until age 7 after countless hours of speech therapy. So as I've gotten older, I've gotten more woodlands about my voids and protecting it in my pension for.
Regarding my voids.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Has gotten really, really low. Like the Macarena now.
The Macarena way back in the day.
That's how old I am, ladies.
But people, I really wish that people would ask me the damn question, why do you talk like that instead of assuming one of, if not more, the following one. I'm always drunk.
I'm being Irish judging.
But I can change that. I'm Irish. You can see from my lad's name, if I'm not Irish, pod Irish.
Someone up there really screwed up, up I am naming or that I'm on drugs.
The only drugs I take are prescriptions.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: Nothing excited, is it? They're painkillers.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: That I might not be completely there.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: It's like, really, this is my job. If I get defensive because you asked me that question, even on a date, never mind walking in a supermarket or a movie theater or whatever, then I'm gonna be pretty shite at my jobs. Ladies. It really pisses me off. And I think this is where it comes from when children come up to me or attempt to ask me, which doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, parents shoo them away and we carry that into adulthood.
That is the problem.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: I've had so many.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: At a very young age. And then we struggle, see, to get it back in.
[00:23:22] Speaker C: See, I, I, I have to push back on that a little bit personally, because I don't think it's anybody's business why you sound the way you sound. I don't think that we should be going around satisfying other people's curiosity with our personal medical history.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: That's something I've learned from you, Alice, isn't it? When I started, when we started to become friends and I was talking to you about, oh, you know, I've been in the shop today and this woman was like, what's wrong with you then? And I felt like I needed to say, I've got cerebral palsy. I've never been able to walk. And Alice said, why, why, why are you.
[00:23:56] Speaker C: This is something that came from my own experience. This came from reading accounts of people who had acquired their disability who said, if somebody comes up to me and said, oh, what's wrong with you? Then they're essentially asking me to relay a hugely traumatic event y that caused me to go from being non disabled to become a disabled. And fundamentally, it is none of their business. They will go home and be like, oh, I met this woman on the bus today. And they will tell your story like it is gossip.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:28] Speaker C: And, and not think twice about the emotional impact it's had on you. And as somebody who I, I get it a lot. I have lots of people ask because I'm a go dog user. Lots of people come up and ask me about why I have a dog.
And you know, I say, I'm legally blind, she's my dog, because my eyes don't work.
And, you know, I'm not. I, it's not, it's not something that I find, you know, difficult emotionally to share with people. But that doesn't change the fact that it's not there in business. Yeah, it's my life, not theirs. And so what we need to be doing is, as much as I appreciate we want to break down barriers around the people being afraid to ask questions. The problem I have is the questions people are asking are what's wrong with you? Not do you need anything to support you in this exact moment.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And the, the thing that I always say is the slow leak effect. So it might be that, like on some days you feel like, yeah, I can't answer that question. It's not a problem. Like, it's a bit intrusive, but I'll answer it. And then other days you could have had a really, really shitty day where everything's gone wrong, you're in a lot of pain, everything is like 10 times difficult because your body is tired. And then some nosy so and so will turn around to you and go, oh, what's wrong with you then? Why do you need that wheelchair? And it's just like, I am going to lose my. Because, you know, it's just not. I don't want to talk about it.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I mean what both of you said. It's very valid. And that's all.
That's only my wish. In terms, the most offensive question that someone told me about in graduate school, she would recounting how in undergrad classmates would come up to her, she had cerebral palsy also.
And people, both males and females, would inquire, can you have sex?
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:56] Speaker C: Yeah. We've had guests who have, who have shared that they've had.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: We've personally had it as well. I've had it.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: If I didn't already have TMJ, my. My jaw would have dropped 15 floods.
[00:27:13] Speaker C: And the audacity that people think that that is any of their business.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Just why, why would you disclose that information if it's a first date or even on a dating app, you know, I don't know you from ad. Literally, I don't know you from Adam, but mine. At least buy me a drink first.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Yeah. My snarky response after getting over the shock of that is I said, well, and maybe that's. It's because I'm a CID ginger male.
My response to that would be, why so serious? Yeah, he was a questionable. Why so curious. And if you're so curious, why don't you find out?
[00:28:15] Speaker C: I mean, that's something I say all the time. This is not like we are living in 1917, it is 2024. The Internet exists. If you have a weird pervy question, someone else has Googled that.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Somebody else, somebody else has one as well. It's exactly the same thing.
[00:28:32] Speaker C: Exactly. And if it's, if you're like. And it was. I was such a huge fan of Twitter when it, back when it was still Twitter and the disability Twitter space and that community because there were so many people on there sharing their stories and their experiences and that. It was a, almost, it was a fantastic place. If you did have questions, you don't have to go and bother some poor person who's just trying to do their weekly shop or go to the pharmacy or pick their kids up from school. You can go and ask a person who has made a point to go out there and be like, I'm gonna tell you about this.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Yes, I've written a blog about this. If you've got any questions. Exactly. And they've taken the time to go. Point one, point two, point three.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: There is no excuse other than ignorance and laziness that you are bothering strangers in the street to satisfy your own curiosity. It makes me so cross.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: But, but, well, I can see that and hear that very, very clearly.
But I mean the two questions, the one about my voice which is really personal almost adds, can you have sex? And keep in mind that can you have sex?
Not do you enjoy having sex? It's like, can you? And it's like, yes, I absolutely can. Thank you very much again.
[00:30:19] Speaker C: Why are you offering? What's this.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Period?
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Thanks for taking an interest, babe.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah, no, we're not giving the kids in my, my disability, it's imagined begin to transfer you all future children.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: I always say there is no stupid question because I've heard them all and I really, I really have heard them all. Like I can remember I used to work in a, in a school and I was in charge of like some kids from another school who it was, it was a special school that I worked at and I was in charge of a group of kids from a mainstream school. So they weren't, they were non disabled. And I said, you know, if you have. Because they all, they all came in, they were like wide eyed and mouth slightly open. And I said if you have any questions, because I know it can be quite scary, you know, seeing a lot of disabled people in one go can be quite mind blowing for some people. I was like, if there's any questions then let us let you know, let me know. And I'LL do my best to answer them. And about an hour and a half went by and these kids were like, just stood against the wall with that, like. Wouldn't move, wouldn't say anything. Wouldn't move, wouldn't smile. Didn't look like they were enjoying us. And I just pulled them to one side. There's about four of them. I said, what is the problem with. What's the problem? And one of the lads, one of the boys said, can we catch what you've got? And I was like, no, no, you can't. You're all right, you're safe. You don't have to wear a Hazmat, so it's fine. Yeah, so I've never, I just. When I think I've heard it all, there will be somebody who will turn around and ask me a question and.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: I'm like, what is your thoughts again? Again? To get to, to let my rage go in a useful direction. Yeah, that to me is just. It's a, it's a lack of exposure and a lack of education.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:17] Speaker C: Like if those kids, if, if we started helping non disabled children to understand that there are disabled people in the world and that there are obviously a huge variety of disabilities and experiences and that if, you know, if we could, we could help them and just, just normalize disability as an existence. That. And it goes to the same for any kind of minority identity.
Yeah, we normalize that for our children through education and exposure. Then, then there's not gonna be. Because actually, as much as that story is awful for you loose. Those kids probably had spent an hour super anxious.
[00:33:02] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[00:33:04] Speaker C: So nobody, nobody had a good time in that situation.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: No, no. And, and, but I also think as well that a lot of sort of people that are a bit frightened about disability, you know, kids especially who are frightened about disability are frightened about disability because their parents are frightened of disability.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:28] Speaker A: Breeds terror, doesn't it? You know?
[00:33:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Another question, and thankfully I haven't heard that I've been asked it in a while. Are you only sexually attracted to people with disabilities?
[00:33:48] Speaker C: That's such a weird question. Like you can only make within our species.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I like the look of your wheels.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm disabled and I also have a disability change myself.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: I do have to say, though, I do really, really find the phrase interabled when talking about a disabled and disabled partnership. It's just. Oh, it's just a bit. It just makes me want to throw up in my mouth. It's not great. Yeah, great phrase.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: No, it should like.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah, but sounds like something. A service at an airport.
[00:34:35] Speaker B: Exactly.
So in terms of the podcast, YouTube run, relevantly, I must say. And I don't legend to a lot of podcasts because I'm not that I don't enjoy them. I follow more than I listen to because I'm so steeped in my own and preparing, preparing, preparing, preparing. Oh, five hours have gone by and I'm still seeing the word preparing, labor, taxing. It is. How did you two come up with the name?
[00:35:30] Speaker C: I knew this question was coming.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Alice, this one is yours.
[00:35:35] Speaker C: So I take full responsibility for our.
Our name, which I both love and hate.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: Do tell me.
[00:35:47] Speaker C: So we want.
We knew what, that we wanted a show that kind of addressed the fact that as disabled people, we are always kind of put in a box, put in a space of. This is. This is what people expect. This is the, you know, we see you as your disability and we don't see the other elements of your identity.
And we wanted that to be reflected in the name and we went back and forth a lot.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Do you want to tell. Do you want to tell everybody what my suggestions were?
[00:36:21] Speaker C: The one that I will. I always remember is that Lucy really liked the idea of Pigeon hold, which I, I get, I absolutely get, but I just feel like, can you imagine loose at the beginning of. Hello and welcome to the Pigeon hold podcast.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: You would remember it.
[00:36:39] Speaker C: I'm glad that's not what we ended up with.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: Typecast was another one.
[00:36:45] Speaker C: Typecast. But that's a, that's a podcast for actors.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: So close with Typecast, where we were like, yeah, actually. And you were like, hang on, let's Google it.
[00:36:54] Speaker C: You were like, no, but I wanted something clever because I am a bit of a smart ass. And so I was like, oh, let's do something.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: In that.
Not picking it up at all.
Turn up your volume for me to pick it up all the way over here in America.
No, go on.
[00:37:28] Speaker C: So we, so we, we both really liked the idea of labeled because it.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Just from a graphic design point of view. We were like, we could have sticky labels everywhere, to be fair. Yeah.
[00:37:39] Speaker C: You know, we just, we. We felt like it was really appropriate. But that is also already a podcast about record labels.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Record labels. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:37:50] Speaker C: So I was like, hey, hey, hey, let's be really clever. Let's. Let's go labeled, but let's spell it L. Able. Duh.
So our podcast title is L A B L E D Labeled Podcast.
And not immediately, but quite swiftly, we regretted it because we found we were spelling it to everybody. Yeah, yeah.
Situation.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: It was when we were doing media interviews, wasn't it, for the local press and they were like, how do we spell that? How do we. How was like, I need to speak to Alice about this.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: Is it too far? Too far gone by that point?
We also found that there are some people in the disabled community who don't like that kind of abled and ability. And because it. It's all a little bit.
It's all just a little bit. Person with a disability, not disabled person.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: I would just like to point out that if we'd have called it pigeonholed, you wouldn't have had this issue.
[00:38:54] Speaker C: This is true. And we found out that for people who use screen readers, it is the lab lead podcast.
So all in all, somewhat disastrous.
[00:39:08] Speaker A: Yeah, Lab lead. So it's like if you were to. If. If you were in a laboratory and you had to lead. Yeah, I led the laboratory. That's how we're.
[00:39:18] Speaker C: That's how. How screen readers read the title. Because it is, you know, screen readers can't intuit that it's the way the spelling is.
[00:39:28] Speaker B: So I would work shopping names with a friend of mine and we got it down between Disability Empowerment now and Disability Empowerment Today.
And he's actually the one who said you should go with the former rather than the latter.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: I shortened it to Den D E N. Yeah. To make it even more easier and mysterious. Just like my voice.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: It is like naming a child, though. Do you know what I mean?
[00:40:20] Speaker C: I had no problems with that. That bit was easy. Naming the podcast was much more difficult than naming my child.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: I.
I was getting sort of text From Alice at 3:00 in the morning. What about this? What about this?
[00:40:38] Speaker B: This.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: This one's available. What about this? Does this sound all right? What about. Do you like this? I don't. You've given me so many names. I have Wolf, the Will to Live. I'm losing the will.
But we got, we got there.
[00:40:49] Speaker C: I was gonna say we're three and a half years in now. And so this is what we're stuck with. And we've, We've, we've done well with it. We've got.
We have a sort of miniseries that we do where we look at. We tell the story and kind of dig into characters, disabled characters from, like, fiction and film and TV and stuff like that that we've called Fabled, which obviously works because we're labeled and we're just. We've lent into it. It's Fine.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah, we're very happy with that one.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I just did my birds mini series or mini season on a Broadway musical called how to Dance in Ohio, which is actually about to start, hopefully their UK production shortly.
And then the post season season will be on Disability Law in America.
And so I'm doing a lot and there are many arcs throughout the season as well. And so as I would tell Lucy before we begin that this season will be 60 episodes and wow, be over a year. And the lucid's like, well, do you always do that? And I'm like, no, no.
We do things to punch the envelope, so to speak. Like the third year we did two seasons in one year because I wanted to, I had the gods to do that. And then I'm like, we're never doing that again.
[00:43:05] Speaker A: I think, I think, I think the fact that we are our own producers of our show. So Alice is always saying, you know, when I get in a flap about things, which is, you know, semi regularly, she'll say to me, lucy, why are you, why are you worrying about this? This is our thing. If we don't want to do something, we don't have to run it past anybody.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: The only people have to run it.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: Past each other is it. Run it. The only people we have to run it past is each other. So if, like, if, if Alice wanted to stop doing a certain element of the show, we would discuss it. If I wanted to stop doing a certain element of the show, we would discuss it and we come to an agreement. So we are currently in the midst of creating our first season. We've done 100 episodes so far, but we, they were bi weekly and we were getting towards like the beginning. It was the beginning of this year, wasn't it, Alice, where we were kind of just like running out of steam a little bit. And Alice, we both had quite sort.
[00:44:04] Speaker C: Of big changes in our personal lives. You know, we both work alongside doing the podcast and we would. It was like Lucy said, we were getting to the kind of the point where we were like, this is not sustainable.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: So we decided the best because, I mean, Alice was very kind and she made me cry. I mean, I cry everything. If, which, if you listen to the podcast, you will know. But Alice sort of said, the only thing I don't really want to stop doing is, is spending time, you know, with you. Because if I, if we stop the podcast, that's what will happen.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Had to do that.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: So we ended. We. We sort of said, well, let's move it to seasonal. So we do within the season, we will do two history. Am I right? With this honest two history?
[00:44:54] Speaker C: I think we're. It's. It's gonna be a little bit. Yeah, we're just trying it at the moment. Yeah.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:00] Speaker C: It's our first season. We're not really sure exactly what it's going to look like, but we're aiming for sort of six to eight a season.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Not 60, which means they're not 60.
[00:45:12] Speaker C: No. Thank you.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: I mean, I tapped CGM3 at 30 and that for me was.
I was sure that was the highest I was going to go, but then I'm reaching a milestone birthday this year, and so I went up further and then the. The bonus episode I did last season with a old college maid of mine where we did not really discuss disability at all. We just discussed all mutual fawning over the bend to Petch mode.
[00:46:14] Speaker C: We've got episodes like that. There's an episode where Lucy and another wheelchair user just talk about air fryers for 40 minutes.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Until that episode did amazingly well. So I kept adding more bonus content into the premiere and then I arrived at that magical number 60.
Thankfully, I didn't go any higher.
I would have had to put a M rating on it. And they're all podcasts like that, which. Oh, great. I. I mean, we. We do get around a lot and. But, yeah, I'm not.
I think I'm going to go between 20 and 30 from now on.
Maybe riding the middle 25.
I know here in America, TV season, it's like 20, 22 episodes. Well, over there in the UK, I'm a big fan of Law and Order UK. That show was brilliant. And I loved how the. You don't call them seasons, you go series.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:58] Speaker B: And still smaller and more condensed.
[00:48:03] Speaker C: You guys do everything bigger than us. Just generally.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: I mean, as a country, seeing that format and seeing the title format, it's very appealing, so. And that is why I constantly tried to play with the format.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: It's nice. And it's nice to know, isn't it, Alice, that we are quintessentially English and we do six to eight episodes and that's a lot. It's quite nice.
[00:48:41] Speaker C: Then we all go away and have a cup of tea.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: Yes, we'll go and have a cup of tea and a piece of cake. Thank you very much.
Yeah, it's. Yeah.
[00:48:50] Speaker C: It's also really nice to hear that there are, like, other podcasters out there who are like, we're trying this and we're gonna see what happens.
[00:48:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:57] Speaker C: Yeah, we Got halfway through doing this and then this happened, so we decided.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: To do that anymore.
[00:49:02] Speaker B: I mean, my producer, I, I really enjoy working with him and I would never want to hire a person who said yes to everything. I'd say, yeah, yeah, but there's, there's a lot of things that my team will just sign up on because they can see the creativity and there are things that they come up with that I immediately sign up on because I'm, and they're not even in my creativity.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: I think as well, the, the, the whole podcast. So I, I also, so I'm, I, like I say said earlier, I am a bit of a nerd. And before I did podcast and I used to do hospital radio and I did local radio over here.
And the only way you can get good at hospital radio or local radio or podcasting is other people have to hear you. When you're really bad at it, you're like, you're like, stick with me, please. Because this, like, you listen back to some of our early episodes, you're like, oh, that's a bit rough around the edges, like, and you listen. I always say to people, if you're going to start listening to the show, start like from episode 100 and work your way back because by the time you get to episode one, you'll be like, yeah, this is old, this is old stuff. I could forgive, like the little rough around the edges bit. Yeah, those things. No, that's what I like about podcasting you, because you're the producer, you can go, I don't like that. Let's get rid of that. You don't have, there's no higher power going, well, you know, if you, if you get rid of that, you know, you're going to lose sponsorship. We're quite lucky because we don't have any. I say lucky. It's a double edged sword. We'd like some more money, please.
But also, we are not, we are not emboldened to sponsorship deals.
[00:51:12] Speaker C: We are, we're entirely self funded. And I will absolutely take this opportunity to say that you can donate to our GoFundMe and all of our details for that are on our website and on our social media. But by being self funded, like Lucy said, it means, you know, we have that autonomy. We are supported by an incredible group of volunteers. So all the people who work on our show are doing it, giving up their own time to do it and they're, you know, they're fantastic. We had a meeting just yesterday talking about our second season and sort of what, what Content. We've already got what we're thinking about the direction for it. And it was very much a team effort of, you know, I said, this is what I'm thinking, but I don't know how it's going to land. And other people in the team saying, well, what if you did this? What if we included this? And it is, you know, there are. There are definitely people out there who have made a success of just sitting in a cupboard on their own, talking into a microphone.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: It just takes a bit longer, doesn't it?
[00:52:14] Speaker C: I don't, you know, for us, I. I couldn't. You know, I could.
I only wouldn't want.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: You wouldn't want me every 45 minutes going, sponsored by Coca Cola.
[00:52:25] Speaker C: But I also think. I also think that, like, you know, if. Oh, if you. If you'd gone off loose and started your own. If you've gone up and started your own podcast, like, oh, everybody, like six months.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:52:39] Speaker C: It. We couldn't do this without each other and without the whole team sort of contributing is such a huge team effort to get that. Exactly as you say, Keith. You know, there might not be people directly in that production space, but there are the people who work, you know, because they're volunteers. They wouldn't do it if they didn't care.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: And we have had people who've started with us and they've sort of gone off and so said, it hasn't lasted. Yeah, it's not lasted, but that's the way the world works. If. If everybody who came on board, stayed on board, we wouldn't. We'd be at full capacity and everything would be running so smoothly. But like Alice said, when. When it gets tough, and there have been tough moments where you think, I can't do this anymore. I can't do this. We rely on each other, I think, to sort of lift each other up and go, it's fine, it's all right, I'm here, it's all right. I can help you with this. And.
[00:53:31] Speaker C: And we've had incredible people on our team where we've got. Jesus Christ, we've got 12 hours until the next episode is out and we haven't got a transcript and people have stepped up and gone, I'll do it, don't worry about it, I'll get it done. And, you know, it is a huge team effort to get. To get every episode out.
[00:53:50] Speaker A: If you listen to this. Thanks, guys. We love you.
[00:53:53] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:53:54] Speaker B: So did I hear you correct that you have over a hundred episodes but are just starting your first Second season.
[00:54:14] Speaker C: No. So we. We would. We were releasing every other week and then we couldn't do that anymore, so we moved to a seasonal format.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Ah, okay. Okay, that makes sense.
[00:54:27] Speaker A: It means that. It means that we can take our time with production and post production and the transcripts and everything. Nobody's rushing at 12 hours before program release going, shit, I need to get this done. We can just take our time, make sure everything is ready to go, and then release it when it's ready. It won't go out until it's ready.
[00:54:48] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what we keep saying to people is we don't know when season one is coming out yet because we haven't finished it and we're not going to be releasing it until it's finished.
[00:54:56] Speaker A: I think after season one, we'll get a good feel of how long a season takes us as a team, and then hopefully we'll be able to go, okay. It takes is like six months to make a season. So we can either do one. We can either do one season a year and be very, very generous with the time or do two seasons a year and, you know, push ourselves a little bit. But I think it's going to take us some time to find our feet in that sort of format. But I know. I'm confident that we will get there, both Alice and I, and as a wider team, we will get there. Because it makes me so proud that our volunteers are just as invested in this as me and Alice are.
[00:55:35] Speaker C: And it has really allowed us to think really carefully about what content we're producing. Instead of going, we've got a gap, you know, we've got to get an episode ready. Actually thinking, well, how, you know, how do these two sit together? We've had episodes before where there's been people who've come on and shared really heartfelt, meaningful, difficult, personal stories. And then the next episode is me, Lucy and Daisy dicking around on a history podcast. And it's just a bit like, we're not giving those, you know, episodes the space that they need. Yeah, exactly.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: I love that stage dicking on and how that came just out of your mouth.
It's the most natural thing you could say about, I need to readily fly over next week. We all need to go out to the pub and have jeans.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: Sounds good.
Yeah, yeah. Tear crumpets. Yeah.
[00:56:50] Speaker C: I wouldn't. I would not be drinking tea at the pub. I'm sorry.
No, I mean, Jen, thank you.
[00:56:57] Speaker B: Well, yeah, no, I'll go in with you on that. I am Irish.
[00:57:04] Speaker A: My life yeah, careful what you wish for Alice. You might drink your to the table.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: Unless you be the judge.
So yeah, I mean also the reason why I, the reason why my team works so closely is because I insist on paying them.
I have the ability to do that.
And they all walk two or three other jobs so they can prorate me rage.
And we're very close.
And so it's like I, I don't think I could come up in execute above these long form ideas if I didn't.
But like I told Lucy right before the episode, which is the only question I really ask people I really care about when I'm thinking of hiring them is are you passionate about this project?
Because my team, who I'm so blessed to work with, in fact I can't really shut up about them. That's how much of ego I have. I will talk about other people and then be self deprecating to judge he really like himself but it's like the thing I value the most about the people I work with. And to duck tell what YouTube said, they they either meet my passion or they somehow exceed it. And right now I am the only person with a disability on the paid team. And that stuns me and builds me up with so much gratitude that people who do not have the direct experience I do do or that we do can really enjoy this walk.
Only wanted seed succeed. I always say Vincent always has been and always will be a team collaboration. So I'm right now it leads the voids.
But everyone behind me, like all of your volunteers, they all a match in every episode you put out. And so I just find it very hot and that I can walk alongside people who see the intrinsic and importance of the work that we put out.
[01:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Our latest volunteer who works on our social media, she said she actually started off as a listener and then said, you know, have you got any roles?
[01:01:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we've had a couple of Emma our, our guests.
[01:02:00] Speaker A: We joke, don't we that most of our volunteers are our listeners. So if like they all come on board.
But Ella said to me like when I spoke to her like last week or week before, the thing I like about the podcast is that sense of community. Like we and it always humbles me when I hit when I'm you know, meet listeners and you know, or they get in contact with us and they said, you know, I, I, I'm new to the world of disability and I didn't know really where to start and they found us and it was just like listening to two I mean it's good that it sounds like two friends talking, because that's essentially what it is. But the fact that, you know, we, we are slowly, slowly building this sense of community and belonging of, you know, it's. It's all right if you're a bit different and it's all right if you've got difficulties. It's. Everything's going to be all right. Because it's not all. It's not all bad and gloomy.
[01:03:00] Speaker C: Yeah. But if you do need to and whine about it, we're also here to do that too.
[01:03:05] Speaker A: What was. A glass of wine, babe? I'll sit next to you.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: What's the problem?
So I would love to be a guest on your podcast multiple times as I hope that we will get to talk to each other on multiple episodes.
The joke, the inner joke this season and it hasn't even begun. It doesn't begin until early September. But I'm front loading so much content. Cause I'm.
I keep wanting to outdo Marcel.
[01:04:00] Speaker A: Only we know that one, don't we?
[01:04:03] Speaker B: Alexander myself that I can.
No one is holding the strings here.
But the inside joke that I keep making is that we don't have five hours.
I really wish we did because now do I really want to do a five hours with anyone? No. No. But it's a good joke.
[01:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And it makes it, it makes the guest feel nice.
Talk to you for five hours.
[01:04:46] Speaker C: And there's definitely been people that I've been like, I've enjoyed this recording so much. I do not want this to end. And then we have also had guests where I'm like, oh my God, how's it only been 20 minutes? I feel like you've been talking for days.
[01:05:00] Speaker A: Is that one when I'm doing a fable and you're really bored?
[01:05:05] Speaker B: So how I end every episode, and I'd like to just think of this as part one of our ongoing collaboration is that in case there are any inspiring podcasters, video casters, self advocates, actors, musicians, what have you. I'm sure both of you wear mini hats throughout your lives. In case there are any inspiring advocates who are looking to get into this line of work. What would be some advice you would give them?
[01:06:09] Speaker A: Who wants to go first?
[01:06:11] Speaker C: Have you got a response?
[01:06:13] Speaker A: Loose, Give me a minute. Have you got one?
[01:06:16] Speaker C: I think so. I think I've got one.
[01:06:17] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[01:06:18] Speaker C: I think the most valuable thing and the only thing that has got our podcast from a conversation on Twitter to 100 episodes is find your surround yourself with like minded, supportive partners, even if those are just friends who uplift you or whether they're, you know, people who are actually supporting you with the production and creation of your work, surround yourself with people who, like you said, Keith, who are passionate and who. Who want it to work for you. Because there have been so many times, like, I. It wouldn't. I've been going around saying to my husband, I could do a podcast that hard for like, six weeks or so, though, before I started talking to Lucy. And I would never have gone further than that. It would have. Every time I listen to a podcast, I'd have been like, I could do this four years on, and I wouldn't. I wouldn't have done anything.
It's. We are only here because of the collaborative effort. And, yeah, that's. That would be. My piece of advice, is find people to uplift you and support you in the creation and achievement of your aspiration, whatever that aspiration is.
[01:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think my advice is. In the world of advocacy, I. I would if. Yeah, it's probably advice. Word of warning. I don't know what it is, but if you are. If you are somebody with a disability and you go into the world of advocacy, be prepared for it to be like wading through tar, because sometimes it gets very heavy and you think to yourself, is anybody listening to me? Should I keep banging on about this? But if you are passionate and you believe in it, it's worth talking about, because one day somebody will listen. Whether it's your friend who wants to set up a podcast with you, whether it's, you know, people in.
[01:08:14] Speaker B: Who had four and have farmers.
[01:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Whether it's, you know, somebody in.
[01:08:24] Speaker B: If you.
[01:08:25] Speaker A: If you have enough passion and drive to keep talking about it, somebody will have to sit up and listen. And on the days where that's really hard, I think it's always nice to remind yourself that, yes, this is tough, but you might need to take a step back for a while and recharge those batteries, but you can come back even stronger once you've had a rest. And a. And that kind of take a breather and just focus on something else. Because me and Alice have had it where we had one episode that kind of blew up a little bit in our face, didn't it? And it was a bit of a whirlwind of. Of advocacy and being a, you know, sort of pointing out about access needs for gigs and things like this. And towards the end of it, we were like, we can't. We can't keep talking about this because it's just exhausting. So we don't kind of take a step back. And whilst you might feel frustrated and fed up about this, the current situation, if you are exhausted, then you're not going to get very far or you just got to take a step back, take a breather and then go again and keep going until somebody goes. Actually, yeah, that's not right because once you've got that one person on your side, it will start to slowly snowball. That would be my piece of advice.
[01:09:37] Speaker B: The only limit or the only burnout I have found in doing this video Cats.
And people would be right to think you're. You have this absurd idea of doing a 60 episode mega season.
How are you not going to burn yourself out, not to mention everyone else around you. And I've already found the burnout point.
There was one Sunday where I decided to record three episodes back to back.
And I'm after that, I'm like, yep, never doing that again.
Although I'm recording another episode after that a few hours later. And so 2. It's fine.
[01:10:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:10:54] Speaker B: 3.
[01:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it should.
[01:11:01] Speaker B: That would suppose to come up way earlier.
What?
Two parter. It's the same question.
I like to think that both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities legend and watch this video cats.
But I'm not naive to think that both groups or groups within those groups take away the same things. And we've talked about a lot of topics in this episode. So as my guests, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from everything we've talked about?
And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities take away from the.
[01:12:32] Speaker A: I think, yeah, I think it's, I think it's, it's that sense of, you know, that it's not all doom and gloom, particularly for people who, who aren't disabled.
That, you know, you might have one view of disability because that's what the mainstream media like to feed you until you watch the Paralympics and then for two weeks like, oh, are they brilliant?
But it's not so it's not all doom and gloom. And the thing that I think I hope disabled people take away from the fact is something very similar. You know, that just because me and Alice have a disability, it's not the only thing we talk about. We talk about lots of other things. It's not that one defining characteristic that makes us friends. We're friends because we get on. And I think that's what I hope disabled people take away that Your disability doesn't have to be your defining characteristic.
Says the girl who has a podcast about disability, works in disability and talks a lot about. That's not right. Let's get it sort of duck disability rights. But yeah, that, that would be my whole hope for people that they can see that, you know, just because you're disability, just because you're a disabled person doesn't mean that you have to be defined by it.
[01:14:00] Speaker C: I think that was a very good answer. I would like both disabled and non disabled people watching and listening to this to take away the fact that there is this amazing little indie podcast coming out Britain that they should all go and subscribe to and follow and listen and donate to. That's.
[01:14:18] Speaker A: That was way better than my suggestion.
[01:14:22] Speaker C: That's what I want people to get out of this.
[01:14:24] Speaker A: People working marketing. I'm the one who works in marketing.
[01:14:30] Speaker B: Wow. Okay, so that makes the next question easy.
If anyone wants to find out more about the labeled podcast, ought to reach out to either of you.
What is the best way for people to do that and to find out more?
[01:15:01] Speaker A: Effy, Alice, take it away, babe.
[01:15:05] Speaker C: You can listen to the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google. Google podcast is not a thing anymore.
YouTube podcast. Yeah, we are releasing, currently releasing our back catalog on YouTube. So you can find us there.
You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and the platform formerly known as Twitter. We are labeled pod, which is L, A B L E D. And I believe it's labeled podcast on YouTube.
[01:15:36] Speaker A: Yes, it is. You can also visit our website www.labeledpodcast.co.uk and all of the information, transcripts to previous episodes, how to donate, all that kind of things is on there too. So come and join us and if.
[01:15:54] Speaker C: You want to reach out to us directly, you can email us. Labeled podcastmail.com thank you so much, Alex.
[01:16:05] Speaker B: And Lucy for a very rousing part one discussion.
I've enjoyed it immensely.
It makes having to play email tag for a year literally.
That's not me being funny. This is what we did. Yeah, Podcast.
That's how hard we all work, dogs.
I look forward to coming on your podcast, although I'm not, so I would use the term dicking around on pict.
That's.
I mean, it's fun.
[01:17:08] Speaker C: It's just, if you've ever listened to it, it's a very accurate description of our episodes.
[01:17:17] Speaker A: All Daisy's fault.
[01:17:21] Speaker B: That's correct.
I don't even need to listen. But I, I do. I enjoy your podcast very immensely and it's hard to hug me because I'm so entrenched and research.
But I look forward to coming on your podcast, to having you two back on mine, and to somehow making my way over to the UK and buying you two round of drinks.
[01:18:10] Speaker A: Oh wonderful. Yeah, let's do that.
[01:18:16] Speaker B: Thankfully it won't take three, three and a half years or 18 months, but considering it took us 12 months of waiting email tag, who knows?
Alex and Lucy, I want to thank you again.
Preach listeners and viewers. Go check out the labeled podcast. You will not regret it.
These advocates, they're fantastic people and I again just enjoyed this immensely.
Thank you so much for making the time to come on and I hope to return the favor soon.
[01:19:16] Speaker C: Thank you very much.
[01:19:17] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having us. Thanks.
[01:19:28] Speaker B: You have been listening to Disability Empowerment. Now I would like to thank my guests. You are listener and the Disability Empowerment team that made this episode possible.
More information about the podcast can be
[email protected] or on our social media DisabilityEmpowermentNow.
The podcast is available wherever you listen to. Podcasts are on the official website. Don't forget to rate, comment and share the podcasts. This episode of disability empowerment knowledge copyrighted 2020.
