Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome to Disability Empowerment now season four. I'm your host, Keith Mevigi Ginsini. Today I'm talking to Arthur, Ben, Madeline.
Ben, welcome to the show.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Well, thank you, Keith. I'm very happy to be with you and your audience.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Thank you. And so tell us more about you.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: And your advocacy.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: Okay. I'm a he. Him. His.
I'll start by describing myself. I'm an old white guy with not enough graying hair.
I'm wearing a headset microphone. My head is on a blue and white striped pillow.
I have a bit of a twink. I'm not sure if it's visible wearing a dark blue shirt.
I didn't want to be talking to you from bed, but you know, life with a disability. I've had some health problems lately and I'm just more comfortable talking from here for now. But in the future, I hope to spend more time back in my wheelchair. Anyway, I'm a writer. I've written a few books. I write for magazines and websites, primarily financial magazines.
I'm 61 years old and born with spinal muscular atrophy, which is a progressive congenital neuromuscular weakness. And what can I tell you? I'm talking to you from Los Angeles where it is hot as hell.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Well, I'm right now in Tucson, Arizona, so I fully agree with you.
Yes, it's all been in the triple digits in. In the afternoon, delightful weather, although with cold breeze outside, it is walkable or wheelable. It's amazing how cool breeze can change everything outside, not to mention rain.
But anyway, so tell, tell me about your books and growing up with your disability and how that has shaped your advocacy.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Sure.
I was born in New York City.
So was I. Oh, really?
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Yes, Manhattan.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Me too. Me too. Absolutely.
Kind of miss it sometimes. Although I guess it's not quite what it used to be. Well, nothing is. Anyway, my family, I was really fortunate. I mean, they have. They had the resources, emotional resources and financial resources to provide for me and the expectation that I would or could do everything. My older brother, who is not disabled, everything he could do, I should be able to do.
So I went to college, I got married, I moved out of the house with hiring attendance, personal care assistants as needed. Never easy, but I've managed that for many years.
But after graduating from college, I couldn't get a job. Now, this was before the ada, so it was still legal to discriminate, and I think I was discriminated against.
I wrote well enough to get some freelance writing assignments, but nobody would hire me full time until two years ago, at the age of 59, I finally got my first full time job.
I'm a remote contributor to a financial news website.
But that was my first full time job. So in between I contributed sporadically.
Websites, magazines, newspapers, and I wrote a few books because I had time and creative energy.
Let me back up. I couldn't get a job right before the ada. And that's when I began to think, hey, these disability rights activists are onto something. You know, they're right. There is discrimination. I hadn't really been aware of it when I was younger. I guess I don't have. My parents protected me or whatever, but all of a sudden it's like, you know, we've got to make the world better. Well, we got the ada and that was great. And I got married and we had kids and I kind of got away from the movements.
And about five years ago, I started seeing models, fashion models with highly visible disabilities, you know, billboards and advertising and whatever paraplegic woman wins a Tony award, average stroker.
I just thought, oh, and of course on social media, disabled people posting selfies and all kinds of glamorous places. And I thought, wow, this younger generation of disabled people, you know, while I wasn't paying attention when I was living my own life, this new generation has come of age and man, they're out there. They're not shy, they're not hiding, they're not pretending as I felt I had to do. Not that I could pretend, but I thought I could, you know, So I started researching, talking to as many folks as I could. And a pretty good book came out of it, I think, called Disability Pride, just to try to understand, you know, where the movement had been and what it was doing and where it was going.
My audiobooks were a little more personal. I wrote one about my life called Miracle Boy Rose up, just out in paperback. Finally after 12 years with a new introduction by YouTube star Shane Burkhawk. And my second book was about my marriage and others like it, so called interabled relationships.
I'll have a fourth book coming out soon. It's a collection of essays and interviews. Anyway, that's sort of been my career and my life path and.
Oh, there was that.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Have one of your books.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: That's the second one. Yeah, super, super.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: No, continue.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: I think I've said too much already. No, never.
You know, one thing I've come to understand, talking to people, people, mostly younger disabled folks.
Disability rights movement, the ada, you know, it's fabulous, but it's not enough.
You can't agreed. You're with me. Okay.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: You can't legislate attitudes. And there are a lot of issues people face that the old movements of my generation really did not address.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you tried in the ada. It's something, but it was a cornerstone for the moment, just like the Special Education Bill words that preceded it.
But there's always and there always will be much room and necessity for improvement. It's not taking away from any of those important and vital legislation work, but the job is very far from done.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, I agree completely.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: So tell me, because I came of age or I would born only leg continues shy of the pre ADA generation what was it like growing up, going to school, struggling to find work before the ADA was even around? I mean, it's not even 35 years old. And I think the new generation, of which I'm a part of the upper end of the age range has always had the ada like we've always had the Internet. That's not trying to disparage any of the new activists of the disability rights movement today, but you and others like you can offer a very unique perspective on what it was like before we had these groundbreaking legislations that have really reached shape, in part disability rights.
And that wasn't always the case, far, far from it. And so go back, take us back in time to what it was like growing up with your disability in trying to navigate a very, very different world.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Sure, sure.
Back in the Stone Age, you know, in the early chapters of my book Disability Pride, I researched, I've got facts and figures about education and so forth. I mean, I am fortunate I was privileged. I know before me, even in my time, a lot of kids like me were in separate schools, if they were in schools at all and didn't learn much.
It's totally substandard or non existent education for kids.
My parents somehow knew that that wasn't good enough for me. I mean, there weren't great advocates generally, but they were advocates for me, for my welfare. And maybe I shouldn't say welfare anyway, my world being.
Excuse me, Right. So New York City public schools in those days, I guess were at least by my parents, they were thought to be kind of substandard.
So they really fought to get me into private schools, as my older brother was.
But private schools would not have me. I mean, they would, you know, beg and cajole and it was no, no, no. And so they finally, you know, found, well, first one for preschool and one for elementary school.
They had a more liberal Policy.
He was upstairs, you know, my dad had to lug my wheelchair up the steps every morning.
And my mom would lug it down the steps after school. But I was the only crip in the place.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: My first grade teacher plugged in my computer reads. Continue.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Sure.
My first grade teacher was writing her dissertation on this new concept called mainstreaming handicapped kids or something like that. I was kind of a test case. And she did things to, I guess, help the other kids, non disabled kids, feel comfortable around me.
Had them, apparently, I don't remember this. Had them come up one by one and touch my wheelchair. So it wasn't scary stuff like that. I always had friends, you know, I mean, I had to be pushed. I was in a manual chair and I couldn't really wheel myself.
But I always had friends to do that.
The best, you know, best ones, the best wheelchair pushers became my best friends.
But by, I don't know, seventh, eighth grade, I was unhappy. I felt the education wasn't good enough.
So I did went through the process of applying to private schools for high school and getting rejected everywhere.
Let me think. The Education for All Handicapped Children act first called the actual handicapped children. Later the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. I think it first passed in 78. I was already in high school, but in 76 we actually found one that would take me. And so I changed schools again. I was the only obviously disabled student in the school.
And again, I had friends. I liked it. He was again upstairs four or five floors with a tiny little elevator that I could barely squeeze my chair in if I removed the footrest. It was that kind of thing, you know, it was real. I had to adapt a lot.
I had to modify my life to, you know, to do what they needed. And I.
I don't think I was able to really articulate difficulties turning pages in a book, holding a pen and writing by hand on paper because, you know, we didn't have computers.
I know when I took the sat, my mother made a point of asking the proctor to go over my pencil marks or they might not show up in the automatic reader, whatever the little bubbles they had to fill in with a pencil. And my marks were very soft.
They were the last I expected, you know, go on and have a fabulous life and career. Time outside of college was the first year section 504 of the Rehab act came into effect so that any place receiving federal funding or even federal tuition assistance as a lot of private colleges have had to become accessible. I was a test case.
A lot of colleges refused to even Consider me.
At least one accepted me before even applied.
Affirmative action, we called it. Then they had to prove that they were, you know, following this new law college was rough. First time living away from home with a hired person living with me, I went through them. The first year was like every month I catch the guy drunk or stealing or just disappear, whatever. Went through a lot of helpers, a lot of assistance.
On top of that, getting around campus was hard. I finally had a motorized chair for college. I had one at home before that, but it really didn't do well outdoors. But my new chair could get across campus.
I was in Boston. It was cold and snowy. I was pretty miserable. I couldn't really keep up with studies, but somehow I did.
I was very isolated.
There were a few dorms that were considered wheelchair accessible. I was in one.
And as we moved up South Point junior year, we were supposed to get better and better dorm rooms, but they didn't have any network settlement.
I was promised an arrangement that was then rescinded because the deans felt that if I was rooming with other students, non disabled students, it would inhibit them.
They would feel responsible for me in a bad way.
Never mind that I was inhibited by being completely isolated.
It was rough.
Junior year, finally rented an apartment off campus with Spygrove. Went now my wife.
That was great. Much better year that year.
But yeah, again, anytime you try to go anywhere, you had to ask.
Some cases you still do, but you had to check. Are there any steps? Is it your. Can I.
Will you allow me in the door? You know, I got kicked out of restaurants for fear of disturbing other patrons.
Got movie theaters if you couldn't get out of your wheelchair. Oh, it's a fire hatter. Not safe for others.
Liability issues. All these excuses to refuse service, which I sometimes obeyed and sometimes did not.
But you think about it, at least I didn't as a civil rights violation.
It's just the way it is.
But the one that I felt as I think many of my peers did, that you had to minimize. You had to pretend you didn't have a disability.
You had to be a overachiever. You know, you had to be twice as good to be considered as an equal.
I recount this in my book too.
There were disabled celebrities, but that was a secret.
Well, they found out about it later. They did all they could to hide the release of physical disabilities.
I had been told that even kids who were educated under the idea before the ADA maybe got good access and services in school. But there was nothing after they graduated. And The ADA allowed that generation to have hope, to even imagine life as a disabled adult.
So besides all the access laws and stuff, I think the ada, well, for me it was very validating that the discrimination I felt and even I hadn't really fully recognized or identified as such.
It's real and a lot of us are out there and the government has now validated this problem in society that was very, very, well, very validating.
But it didn't get me a job.
So even then it had limits, House limits.
I've since become aware, for instance, of how so much of the disability rights movement erase the contributions of non white disabled people or people with less visible disabilities, people with intellectual disabilities. I mean, a hierarchy developed.
It's really unfortunate.
I hope the new generation and future generations that won't be so. I mean, people are more aware, I think, of diversity and of things like learning disabilities and other things that are just white guys in wheelchairs. You know, wheelchair basketball was like, wow, well, that's people.
People in wheelchairs.
I don't want to knock them Paralympics, but a lot of the early symbols of disability empowerment in our culture were white men in wheelchairs who I think did sort of a great job of emulating non disabled athletes. And that was understandable by the broad population.
Oh, they can play basketball. Okay, well, yeah, but what's wrong with, well, lying in bed like I'm doing? I mean, a lot of disabled folks are not going to play wheelchair basketball, especially if they don't use wheelchairs. But I mean, a lot of us are at home, institutions spend a lot of time in bed, whatever, you know, have physical deformities.
I mean, there's all sorts of ways that.
All sorts of disabilities and situations that deserve equal attention and equal piece of the pie.
I hope that makes sense. Let me grab a sip of water for me.
Yeah, thank you.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Greece, go ahead.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah, no problem. Thank you for the head stimulants. And so how did.
I'm gonna be personal and unbelieving for a second for the benefit of those who aren't disabled yet.
You're married.
How did that happen?
You.
You have kids. How did that happen? Because in that day and age, I mean, Vincent's pre ADA and we talked about. You can't legislate people's mindsets, their point of views. And even in this day and age, people are shocked, Shocked, I tell you, that people with disabilities are in marriages.
We want to become parents. Some of us are already parents. I mean, I remember doing a paper on disability and sexuality in Graduate school and one of the books I was reading is it's by Tom Shakespeare, a great advocate called the Sexual Politics of Disability.
And there was one example in there of the countless examples.
A young woman abroad home her non disabled boyfriend to meet her parents and her parents were shocked, shocked and she thought, and she said to her daughter I thought your disability would take care of your romantic desires and we would be, we would have avoided this embarrassment on something like that on that was a example in the uk probably around I don't know Wim, but I mean the wrong point I'm trying to make and I'm not at all trying to trivialize your marriage, your love, the fact that you're a parent but certainly not but the, and I hope you know that and I think you already do know that Talking about mindset people are objects like does your wife have a disability? Do your children have a disability? How does that work?
How.
And all these personal questions that people really shouldn't act and I'm not asking them at all. I'm just trying to get back to that mindset of, of people totally being shocked, shocked. Like inner able relationships exist and we can debate that term all we want. We won't but we could.
And so without getting too over personal I mean it's your story, you can get as personal as you want but just to open a window all of viewpoint to people who are unfair familiar on inner able relationships.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Yes, I'm afraid you're right. I mean it is still people can't believe it.
I, I, I, I think I may be at least partly responsible for the word interabled. I don't like it but when I was writing the book about couples, well people say write about your marriage.
It's like I can't write about my marriage. I'm living my marriage, I'm too close to it. I know I'll talk to other. I'll do a series of stories, little love stories as the publicists put it, of different couples.
Although part of it was, you know, about my own experience.
But in trying to get people that I wanted to interview I had to, you know, sit down, I had to kind of pitch it and I was like interabled, quote unquote, for lack of a better word. And all of a sudden it's you know, kind of everywhere and accepted. I guess it's clear what it means but I'm not exactly comfortable with being labeled that way. You know, a relationship is a relationship but it works I guess in some sense anyway, as you say, we're not going to debate language.
I talk to people, disabled people who grew up with disabilities, as I did.
Who I think you did, who you know, their parents.
The message was, you're never going to find love, you're never going to have that and you're going to be, you know, stuck with your parents forever. And I think it can become a self fulfilling prophecy. I never heard that.
I don't know. As I say, I grew up just kind of not thinking I could not have all the things anybody else could have.
It wasn't easy. I mean, I would, I went through the thing where I would sort of kids on young women politely of course, and they would say, well, no, we're just friends. I don't think of you that way. I think a lot of folks have heard that, but I'm nothing if not persistent. And I kept at it.
But beyond that, once you have a relationship with somebody, there can be or there certainly works for me. And I don't think I'm the only one.
A terrible fear that this is your one chance and it can get a little bad, you know, I'm not saying I've been subjected to abuse, but it would get insecure and you okay.
By the way, it works the other way too. My wife has said, you know, we, if we have a fight or something, as all couples do, she's like, I can't walk out the door and leave you. I'm responsible. I can't. You know, so sometimes even those insecurities and pressures can force you to work out problems.
So I tried to argue in my, in that book that on the one hand, couples like us are the same as another couple. Any other relationship, you go through stuff, you cope, you have surprises.
On the other hand, maybe there is something, if you survive something that makes you stronger than other couples. You already experienced a level of many of them stress or interdependency or of a lack of privacy that other couples don't know, except maybe if they get old enough. You know, you grow old together, you end up. Somebody's bound to have a disability, a physical disability with age, and that just makes you feel closer.
But certainly all the prejudices that we disabled folks face out there affect the relationship too.
How many times has my wife been assumed to be my nurse, my sister, my mother asks to speak for me, you know, does he need to go to the bathroom? She's like, how do I know? Ask him.
Happens all the time. She still does.
It's one reason my wife did not want to be included in My book, because she said it happens too much. Do people look to her to kind of validate me or to speak for me?
We finally worked out a compromise. So she is in there, but not too much. I quoted her a little bit.
Yes, couples do deal with these things.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: How have your children, or children in general reacted to your disability throughout your life?
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Yeah, children are great, you know, for the most part, everything is new to them and they learn and they seem pretty accepting. There's this idea out there that kids are cool and kids will tease. And I've known some of that, of course, but I've heard this so many times from people. I've certainly experienced it. You go down the street in a wheelchair, whatever, and a kid will stop and stare, and the adult will pull the kid away. Don't do that. Don't. I'm like, don't teach this kid that I'm, you know, unsightly or something. Let them look and ask questions. Yeah, Motorized chair. It's pretty cool. You might as well look at it and go, wow.
Ramp on a van, whatever. Any equipment we have or the way we move and communicate. It's pretty cool.
And, you know, I think that's a better attitude. As for my kids, you know, we had to work out ways of sharing responsibility.
A wheelchair can be a great way to carry a small child and all their stuff.
My kids run in my lap all the time.
There was a time as I was getting weaker that I could not drive my chair. My hand control became difficult.
I now have a little joystick I can move with my ribs, which is fabulous. But for a long time, I really was having trouble driving my chair.
And sometimes my elder child would sit on my lap. They were, what, 6 years old or something? And I'd get their help to drive the chair.
And they've told me since that it was great. You know, they weren't afraid or they felt very special to be given this responsibility.
I mean, I know kids are going to react that way. And we were, my wife and I, careful not to, you know, have him feel saddled with too much responsibility.
But, oh, gosh, I would tell them stories and make games out of cleaning up their room, that kind of stuff.
You find ways to get kids to do things that don't involve spanking them or whatever.
Able body parents, mind you, but yeah, every family is different and will do things in different ways.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: How did you feel to be a father?
[00:46:01] Speaker A: Sorry? How did I.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: How did you feel to be a father?
[00:46:06] Speaker A: My father. Well, we did go through a few years of infertility treatments and all that.
So when we finally got there, it's an amazing feeling to you learn something about yourself and about your mate, something you thought you could ever do or cope with, and you find, I think, an inner strength and ability that, you know, you're proud, that's all there is to it. You feel very proud to be, to be, to have this responsibility to be trusted in that kind of role.
It's pretty profound.
Not for everybody, but I would recommend it.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: You mentioned that you were just hired by your first full time job a few years ago.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: How did, how did that feel? And did, how, what did you like writing or being a contributor for a financial news site? That's a very interesting area to operate in. Elite, I think. So how is it like for you?
[00:48:20] Speaker A: Well, when I, for years and years unemployed, I, you know, would write for whoever would pay me. And I did have a lead from my dad who had worked for a financial magazine for a while.
Actually even before that, there was a connection through college to the LA Business Journal, a weekly paper. They were one who would not hire me, but they gave me a few freelance jobs. So that's how I began to amass a portfolio of writing samples.
But I had to learn a lot about business and I found to my amazement that I liked it and that you know, quite a lot of people, but doing financial journalism, but a lot of them are not very good, you know, to understand these technicalities and to be able to explain them to people in good, clear English.
I felt there was a niche there and I, as I say, I surprised myself and I enjoyed it.
The folks I work for now, I had freelance for for about 10 years and I happened to see on LinkedIn that they were hiring a full time writer.
And I emailed them or whatever, or whatever I did to LinkedIn and said, you're in New Jersey, I'm in Los Angeles. Any chance this could be done remotely? And this was, you know, after, during the pandemic and Zoom and all that, you know, it was finally what people like me had been wanting and needing for forever.
Got back to me and said, you know, that's fine, that'd be great, we'd love to have you. And I had to negotiate a contract that gave me enough flexibility, schedule wise.
I didn't want to get up at east coast hours. You know, I'm still never sure if I'm performing up to standard, but they don't seem to complain.
It's an adjustment for me, if I'm honest.
I had Been on my own so long, my own schedule, writing what I wanted. Now I got to kind of tone the line a bit. But it's, you know, it keeps me busy and I have, you know, I want to write. I'm a writer more than anything else, I think sometimes. And it gives me stuff to write and someone to write for. So like that the money's okay.
[00:52:11] Speaker B: So we talked about so much during this episode. In case there are any aspiring advocates listening or watching this, looking to make self advocacy writing financial industry they're calling what is some advice you would give them?
Add someone who's lived through a very difficult time.
Modes of.
Yeah.
[00:53:16] Speaker A: Oh, wow. I don't know.
[00:53:20] Speaker B: There are no wrong answers.
[00:53:33] Speaker A: Well, you know, the old, I guess the old advice and anything is don't take no for, you know. Well, won't say that, but just to keep trying, you know, keep plugging away and working on what you want to work on financially.
First of all, I don't give financial advice. People ask me that. You write for Financial Advisor. What's your advice? I write about advisors. I'm not an advisor and I don't take any of it too seriously. I like learning about the game, but I'm not really a player in the game.
I guess I try to think about, kind of listen to my own curiosity.
Gee, if I were, if I had a lot of money and I was planning my retirement or my estate, what am I going to leave my heirs? What would I want to know? How would I handle this or that situation?
How does an advisor handle it? When a couple comes in and they start arguing with each other as couples do about money and everything else, a lot I just think about those things. And I say to my editor, she, any interest in this story or that?
Fortunately, most of the time I'd say yes.
They also give me assignments about subjects I know nothing about and have no interest in.
Well, I got to research. I've got to interview people. I do a lot of it online now. My.
Because I don't know, I don't like talking to people and calling around and all that. Maybe I should, but I do a lot of it.
I guess I kind of worked out a system for writing up questions and going back and forth electronically.
I always knew I wasn't going to be a roving reporter. I wasn't going to move around and be on the scene. I wanted to be by my computer, putting my words together correctly if I had enough to write about.
Unfortunately, a lot of people want to stay by their computers, so they'll answer questions by email or whatever. And I can, you know, if they're technical terms, I can look them up online. I do that a lot. You know, what is this versus that? Different types of annuities, bonds, whatever.
Educate yourself and you learn a lot and you get better and better as you go. I guess not every story is going to be fabulous, but if you produce enough of them, you can afford a few dead.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: So I like to think that both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities in groups within those groups listen and watch this program. I'm not naive enough to think that each group or groups within those groups take away the same things from every episode. So, as my dads, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from everything we've talked about in this episode? And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover are in grades their own disabilities take away from.
[00:58:26] Speaker A: The good, good, good questions. I mean, in my research, talking to other disabled folks, almost every single one, I think, without exception, had a, a story, an arc, a journey of self discovery.
A lot of it.
People go online and discover, hey, I'm not the only one like me, I thought I was still coping all of my own here and there is a community.
And I think when you connect with the community and you recognize that you're not alone, you know that us, we disabled folks are part of a really big diverse group and always have been. Throughout history, there have been disabled folks contributing to society.
Not always recognized perhaps, but you know, there's a great history, a great community, and there's nothing to be ashamed of.
To me that seems pretty vital. It's inevitable sometimes. Sure you're going to feel bad about yourself.
Society certainly gives you enough reasons to think that you're no good, but try not to listen to that.
It's not just about fighting for ramps and braille and ASL and all those things. They are important.
But I feel like, at least for many people, step one is, you know, I'm okay as I am and I'm part of this vast and vibrant community and this, what's the word? I want this sort of tradition.
Well, this history of great disabled people doing their thing, you know, and I'm all for letting people see that, know that, know about us and you know, we're a pretty cool community, I think.
[01:01:38] Speaker B: Well, my friend, I hope you know, you always have plates on this program and I hope we talk again soon.
Kids, there's so much more we could talk about and really need to talk about in on every topic on its labor. I appreciate so much the time and energy you've devoted to talking so much in this episode about your life and what it was like living pre ada, pre idea and growing up in an area in a time that thankfully it's changing, but it's not so long ago, it's not as long as we think it is, and there's so much farther to go and we can't, can't and shouldn't do it alone.
I am thankful that you have shared so much of your life and your insight, and I look forward to interviewing you again in case there is anyone who wants to reach out to you to find out more about your life, your writing, your career.
What is the best way to do that, my friend?
[01:03:50] Speaker A: Read my book, buy my books. That's it. It should be the library. No, but I'm pretty. I'm pretty easy to find. You know, go to my website benbattlin.com and there's a link there to message me.
I always try to respond.
I'm pretty open to questions of any, almost any sort.
And I do hope we'll get to chat again. This has been fun.
[01:04:29] Speaker B: Thank you very much and I hope you have a great weekend, my friend.
[01:04:37] Speaker A: You too. Thank you.
[01:04:38] Speaker B: And I hope we get to meet in person one of these days. That would be fun. Take care of yourself.
[01:04:47] Speaker A: Super. You too. Thank you.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: You have been legioning to Disability Empowerment. Now I would like to thank my guests, you, Olenza and the Disability Empowerment team that made this episode possible.
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