Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Disability Empowerment now season four. I'm your host, Keith Mephiti. Ginsini. Today I'm talking to Ryland Rogers who is the disability policy advisor. Add my good soap. Rylan, welcome to the show.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: So tell me how you got involved with my good soul.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: That's a great question. I, like lots of members of the disability community, have kind of a long and windy road in terms of career experience and how we get to to the roles that we're in. My joke, which is not really a joke, is that I was born for disability policy. I was born in 1975, which if you remember your history, is the year that the United States first had special education law to allow disabled students the right to a free and appropriate public education. I showed up at kindergarten five years later and I was amongst the first generation of students that benefited from that law and had an all the way through. So I come to disability and disability policy with lived experience from a variety of perspectives.
Really spent the majority of my career in the not for profit space working directly with programs and advocates and my passion and hobby was sort of disability policy on top of other roles. Then joined a national organization in Washington D.C. to be the policy director. Several years ago I was looking for my next challenge and somebody said hey, Microsoft has this job. And I said I don't like me and corporate America, probably not a match made in heaven, but my role is always to have the conversation because I learned something and I build networks by having conversations. So I had the conversation and the interview process made me really interested in the job because Microsoft had, like I like to say, done the pre work. Microsoft has decades of experience working on accessibility. Over 8% of our workforce identifies as disabled. So we have experience on what it takes to do that well. And it was time to bring that experience to the policy conversation. So I took the job texting a hypothesis of whether or not I could make a bigger difference on public policy from inside a large corporation than I could make from a not for profit role. And so I've been here for two and a half years, learned a lot and had a lot of opportunities to partner with the disability community to move policy forward.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: So you told us about the interview POD said and that Mike Goodsolve had done all the pre work.
Could you talk more about that pre work and how it translated or got you prepared outside for your day to day interactions advising them on disability policy and accessibility?
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah, a couple of things that I find to be really positive and make it possible for me to do my job as a disabled woman and to do my job around helping to move forward disability policy.
One is the frame that Microsoft takes when they think about disability and disabled talent. We think about accessibility as a fundamental right. And so that sort of statement, which to me is statement of the obvious, but a corporation making that statement isn't always true. So that frame really helps move things forward. I think the other piece that was a tremendous strength is the way the organization has strong leadership around disability and accessibility. We have a Chief Accessibility Officer, Jenny Le Flurrie. She is a remarkably talented leader who has that executive level leadership. I also really appreciate the model that she's led, which is a high hub and spoke model.
Disability and accessibility are not a silo within the company, but a part of everything.
I think it also really matters because I'm passionate about policy change and changing the world and making public policy work for disabled people, which frankly it hasn't always. And the fact that Microsoft came to the table and comes to the table with experience of what did it take to stand up a supported employment program? Why do we as a company object to 14C? And why can we show that the value of individuals with intellectual disabilities and roles on our campuses is critical to our business? And being able to share those examples brings a different dimension to changing policy. So I think that sort of the structure of Microsoft, the strength of leadership, the view of disability as a talent that actively being recruited for and supported all make things possible. I will also say it is a job where I have had sort of the most support related to who I am as a human and bringing my full self to work. And it's a little bit surprising for me to say that it's the most supportive ever had because I come from disability group, not for profits. Part of it is Microsoft has resources that not every other group has, but the ease at which we can have conversations about accommodations, about adjustments, about what do I need in order to bring my talents to Microsoft has been really empowering and I've felt incredibly supported by that process. I also have really appreciated that that kind of support and accommodation is through the interview process, through the hiring process and then as an employee.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: So my good job is one of the two tech giants in computers. The other, of course it's Apple and my thought I've used both growing up almost simultaneously modes liable to the lower education or grade school education.
So it may be looking at computers from that lens to where I nothing against my good self could assume that the competitor, and I don't know if you guys really view Apple anymore as competitors.
There's a long history between the two companies.
I figure, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, that computers involved in education, particularly grade school, primarily would focus more on accessibility.
So it's very reassuring, and I don't want to use the word surprising, but for lack of a better word, surprising. When I found you and your colleagues through LinkedIn, which is where I find a lot of people nowadays, shocker there to where my good salt had a huge platform and a huge department where this is their primary focus. And you talked briefly about coming in to it that way. Were you aware before that my good solve, or Apple for that matter, had a bedrock focus on accessibility?
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a great question and it's particularly a timely question as technology continues to accelerate.
A couple of things.
Our mission at Microsoft is to empower every person on the planet, and every person on the planet includes those of us with disabilities. And so it's been exciting to see, whether it's Microsoft or Apple or Meta or Google, that we're seeing this sort of massive awareness about how critical it is to build accessibility into products. And you mentioned sort of hardware and the actual computers. And we've seen this real change in the last, I would say, 25 years where things and features that used to be aftermarket assistive technology are now built in into everybody's platform. And that's incredibly exciting to me as somebody who spent hundreds and potentially thousands of dollars on things like Dragon Speed and now it's just there automatically. So that's good news for all of us. I think it's also incredibly exciting that it is something you're seeing across the market in terms of different products. Yeah, it's also exciting to me that it's not just in the hardware in the computer or laptop you buy. It's now part of the software. Whether you're using a Mac computer and you're using Microsoft Office on it, or you're using the Edge browser, which you can use offline captions in AI on so these features that previously there were additional barriers to sort of having the right mix of things. The lines are getting blurrier and the access is getting easier. And we're seeing the shift at this point. I think one of the toughest problems is discoverability, helping everybody know what they already have so that they can set up their individual laptop, their individual web preferences to all of the features that make it work well and best for us. So it's an exciting time and you're seeing that in the world of AI as an accelerator to increasing the accessibility.
So the other thing I would add is that it's also a place where there's a lot of collaboration. Accessibility is absolutely true that there is business competition and there will always be business competition, but accessibility is a place where a lot of the tech companies collaborate and share really to drive forward. And I think that only benefits all of us.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Yes, that's true. And often when one company does it, the reds follow like there's a huge accessibility option menu in the new iPhone OLED to where that hasn't been as massive as it is currently. And that only supports and benefits every of the company because it encourages you and empowers you. Note the word empower.
Excellent branding, namely sometimes to not step up your game and get with the program, but to rides to meet and to offer.
If not the same level, then adds similar level, adds extensibility and then if you overtake that, the other companies have to look to you. So, and you mention collaboration and edge tech giants, particularly Apple and Microsoft.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: You.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Would not expect a lot of collaboration because tech giants, business been around forever literally.
But yet there's this huge collaboration where in an area where it absolutely should be without giving in way any trade secrets, of course. Could you talk more about that collaboration? Because that's very fascinating and heartening to hear.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one really good and timely example of the collaboration is around data and data sets that are missing to make sure that everybody benefits from the acceleration of AI. And so a really nice collaboration is addressing a gap in the AI that supports good captions. So many of us are experiencing the fact that AI captions are getting better, the rates at which they are correct and their error are getting better, their error rates are going down. But there's some gaps and one of the key gaps is non typical speech patterns.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: So for those of I have no idea, none at all, what you're talking about. Sorry to interrupt, but I.
I'm probably the last person on the planet who had any idea what that is like. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: So what you're well aware of, so speaking to the choir here, is that individuals whose disability gives them a non typical speech pattern, often the captions are, to use a technical term, kind of crappy. They're not doing a good job of picking up our speech. And that's because the data sets that really drive the AI captions didn't have enough information and enough recordings of non typical speech. And in order to fill that gap as quickly as possible, we needed to collaborate together. So this is a project that Meta and Apple, Google and Microsoft all came together and said let's fund the research. Let's fund the research to get speech patterns for individuals with intellectual disabilities, such as down syndrome, for disabilities such as cerebral palsy, for Parkinson's, into the data sets so that our each one of us that can then take that data into our proprietary AI captioning services and correct that gap and make it more accessible for everyone. So that work is ongoing. We invested together because we can do it faster together if we all put our resources together and then we could take that data, which doesn't exist yet, as fully as it should be and make sure it's supporting each product line. So it's a really nice example of how we can collaborate and still move forward each product.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Well, I would have loved to be a fly in the room where that collaboration took, which I'm assuming it happened in person all over Zoom.
It would have been spectacular to be in the room where every tech giant really holds the Reed Sword said.
And so what adds a disabled person?
What are your hopes for the future of Microsoft Accessibility? And I should note when I found your LinkedIn profile, the end of it said at Microsoft sensibility had that always been what the.
What my good job had called that department or is it judge casual name between the employees?
[00:19:04] Speaker B: So that's a great question and I can't be 100% sure about the entire history of what it's been called over time, but it is absolutely called Microsoft Accessibility in our public facing and I think that.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Sorry to gut you up. I think we're about to say the same thing. That's extremely important.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's helpful for people to know that because they can know where to go if they're using a search engine on how to find out out about the features and the products, how to get help. We have a disability answer desk that is empowered for people who are having an accessibility challenge with their products to get their issue resolved. So all of that can be found at our accessibility sort of hub on our front facing.
In terms of my hopes, I think I have a couple things that I'm pretty excited about. I'm really excited about the increased engagement of the disability communication communication, the disability community in the discussions about AI and what needs to happen in terms of protecting against risk and at the same time ensuring that the positive use cases that drive accessibility really are going to be available to benefit all of us. So I think that conversation is pretty darn exciting, and I'm really excited to see the growing number of disabled leaders who are engaged in it. I'm also really excited about how helpful it is for the disability community and businesses to work together when there's public policy that's not working. So when we see things that are blockers to employment in the U.S. many people with disabilities have real challenges navigating our benefit system and work. And we all know people who have turned down a job job or a pay raise because it impacts their benefits, and that's not okay. It's leaving critical talent out of our economy. And I think business has a role in helping to modernize those policies. I'm also really excited about, you know, sort of what comes next in the global conversation. The US has a long history of pushing disability rights forward, but in last couple years, what's happening when the European Union and Accessible Canada act and in the UK there's lessons there for all of us. And that global drive forward excites me as sort of a motivator of how we can continue to make change.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: So what platform or what area of Microsoft solved where in hardware benefits, the modes or there's increased focus on accessibility and making it the most extensible as possible?
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the answer absolutely has to be it has to be all of them. It cannot be a focus on one application. It can't be what people's experiences in Microsoft Teams or people's experience and Outlook. It has to be across the platform. It has to be on our Azure cloud. It has to be in our AI products. And you see some of the features that cross the platform as a good indication of that. One of my favorite is the Accessibility Checker. It now lives in your email, in your Word document, in your Excel, in your PowerPoint, right next to the spell checker. As a dyslexic woman, I'm very close personal friends with the spell checker. But now that I can also push the Accessibility checker and double check to make sure that I haven't missed an alt text before I send out a slide, that my headings are correct, that if there's a video, that there's captions in it, and that it prevents any of us with or without disability from sending out something that's inaccessible. So that type of integration across all products is the way accessibility has to be. We're not in a digital world anymore where we think about accessibility as assistive technology that we add on. Accessibility has to be built in and it has to be a delightful experience for all of us.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: That's all very true.
So true that I'm having trouble finding the next question.
How big is the accessibility department in.
I assume it's only grown over the years. Adds the focus which again seems to be a bedrock of the company, which is only good news for all of us who use accessibility technology and also the company. It's very good that they get to highlight that and not have it be a token after thought.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's a great question. And I mentioned that the accessibility team isn't sort of siloed in Microsoft. We're a small but mighty team. But I think the important piece is that it is not the responsibility of the accessibility team only alone to provide accessibility at Microsoft. So it's a hub and spoke model where each part of the business has accessibility responsibilities and accessibility roles. So you may not have a role on the accessibility team that answers directly to the Chief Accessibility Officer, but you may be charged and empowered with accessibility on one of the product teams or one of the sales teams. And I think a piece of that is reflected in the fact that accessibility training is mandated for every single Microsoft employee. So that's a culture piece.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Incredible.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah. It's part of all of our jobs. And I think about that as frankly the way the world should work. Like there's not a role in life and work and community that isn't about accessibility because disabled people are in every place and in every environment. And so it's not an extra or somebody else's department. It has to be part of everyone's work and responsibility.
[00:26:21] Speaker A: You seem very comfortable in this job.
Looking back as you were coming from the nonprofit sector, could you imagine that you would be that comfortable? As you said at the top, you did not think your walk with tech companies of it would be the proverbial match made in heaven. But for me, outsiders point of view, it seems like Microsoft had sort of proven you wrong in just a few years. And I know that's a huge assumption to make. But listening to this episode, that keeps.
That keeps flashing in my head.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think there is a truth too. It's been a good fit. And what I would encourage people to think about is if you're considering a job that maybe doesn't seem like where you belong, to engage in that conversation and to explore because it wasn't on my radar and I really didn't think I wasn't looking at corporate roles and I certainly wasn't looking looking at tech roles and the fact that there's opportunity and interest and active recruitment of disabled talent is an opportunity for all of us all to think about.
I mentioned the fact that Microsoft has required accessibility training for everyone. I think that I'm at a place and a corporation that has such a commitment to culture and fundamental rights has made it an easier fit. Do I always feel like I fit into corporate America? No. Do I have massive imposter syndrome? Most days, absolutely.
But what I keep coming back for is this work lets me learn. I've learned a lot and this work lets me make a difference and that's what matters most to me. I want to figure out in the years that I have left on this planet, what can I be doing to make the world more accessible and to modernize disability policy. And right now this role lets me do that. And that's pretty exciting.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: So if there are any aspiring tech savvy advocates who want to get involved in the tech sector or self advocacy in general, adds someone who has made a career out of it, what are some advice you can give the next generation of advocates?
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I would say that you are desperately needed. The world absolutely needs the power of your voice, your lived experience, your passion, your expertise and that there are growing opportunities. You know, this role didn't exist at Microsoft two and a half years ago and other companies are thinking about what are we missing in terms of workforce roles. So really looking and being open to being the first to push open those doors, looking at what companies need your voice. And then, you know, the other part of my sort of career path which I mentioned is windy, is that always being grounded in what you want to accomplish and being willing to have conversations and figure out if the next step, it might not have been what you planned for, but it might be the right place for you to make a difference and bring your passion. And that difference is really powerful.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: Joe, we talked a lot about the accessibility angle throughout the entire company, which is very, again very hardening to hear because a lot of laypeople would think that tech companies in the pads and nowadays just use extensibility and accessibility advancements as a token afterthought. And that seems to be a model that we're shifting away from that and that's every year.
You mentioned the culture surrounding accessibility.
What is that like in one of the biggest emotes, well known computer companies?
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I see the culture in big and small ways. One of the big ways that is reflected is in the physical spaces.
If you have the opportunity to go visit A tech campus. They're, you know, kind of shiny and fancy and they have cool things and yeah, all of that. But what I really like about the way that we think about Microsoft spaces is the global real estate section is required to follow an accessibility guidelines. And it is not about meeting the ADA or other sort of baseline accessibility standards. It's about how can a physical space be welcoming to everyone who will use it, how can it be as universally designed as possible and how does it support people's work needs? So when you walk into a Microsoft space, you know, the flooring transitions are smooth so that if you're a wheelchair user or someone who is blind, those paths of travel work well, the sinks where, you know, it's a tech company so there's delightful free beverages everywhere and little kitchenettes, but the sinks are roll up with those to the side. So if you're a wheelchair user, you can get access in the same way that everyone. And it's designed that way so it's not async on, it's all the sinks. And I think that that type of physical environment helps us all see the world differently. If we're looking at big and small changes around us that are very intentional to ensure that everyone has access in an equitable way, then it helps us see the world that way, that everyone should have access in an equitable way. I think the frame about accessibility and disability as a talent, you know, there was a history in corporate America and in some companies that still exist when they talk about disability hiring, it's more as a philanthropy or sort of a nice to do. Like look at us, we've done a nice.
Yeah. And in this is the, in this company it is about if we want to win the tech race, if we want to make profits, we need the this talent and that that frame of it as a strength I think is really important in culture.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: So we talked a lot about a lot of topics in this episode and we've I'm sure barely scratched the subfits of everything that Microsoft is doing on a daily basis. Whether it's updating legacy programs or getting ready to launch the next gen O ad.
I mean it's that mad civ.
What do you. I like to think that both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover in grades their disabilities legend and watch this program. I'm not naive to think that both groups take away the exact same thing as my guards. What do you hope that advocates take away from this episode and what do you hope that those lead synergies who have yet to embrace or discover their own disabilities.
Take away from the Zen zone.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: So I guess I would hope, sort of three things I hope everybody is like, newly intrigued with. I might not know every feature that's currently available to me that could make my digital experience better. So I'm going to go look and I'm going to turn on my device and look at the accessibility features. I'm going to look at the website and make sure I'm optimizing it, and I'm going to get excited and try some new things to make sure that I'm having my best digital experience. And I hope that's true for everyone. I love the fact we sometimes talk about the curb cut effect with the ada, and I think we're seeing a digital curb cut effect where things that were designed as an accessibility feature, other folks are viewing them as productivity features. And that's a chance for people who don't yet identify as disabled to get some of the benefits of accessibility features and then start to explore. Yeah, so I think that's one key piece. I think the other key piece is to view companies as potential partners to the disability community. And sometimes that's been viewed in terms of giving, and that's absolutely a critical part of partnership. But I think we should all be pushing a little harder and saying, we want to learn about what you're working on. How can we raise issues in technology that still aren't meeting our needs? How can we partner and offer solutions? What are the policy places that the disability really disability community really needs corporate voices in and really engage in that partnership conversation, whether it's with Microsoft or other businesses that you're using. I think that's a key takeaway for all of us. And then the third part is really thinking through your own networks. And if you're not yet engaged with disability leaders in corporate spaces, think about who else do I want to meet and start to bridge those conversations moving forward? Because it's been a cool part of making that shift from not for profit to the corporate world to get to meet folks from lots of different businesses who have lived experience and passion with disability, who maybe are not as connected to the more traditional disability community as they want to be. And so there's some opportunity to really think that through.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Do you meant the nonprofit? Lord.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: Do I miss it?
Sometimes I miss it most in the idea of being as close to possible to the fight, you know, that ability to sort of use righteous indignation for the greater good.
And sometimes I think, oh, I want to be right out there in in that fight and that's I think just part of who I always am.
But I'm get to stay really connected to the not for profit world with amazing partners and that's been incredibly supportive and empowering for me.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: If someone wanted to reach out to you on the accessibility team, you forwarded me a link on the Microsoft website about accessibility. But if they want to reach out to someone on your team or be spoke model how what is the badge way to do that?
[00:39:59] Speaker B: Well I'm on LinkedIn so there I'd love to be connected and reach out there.
The Microsoft Accessibility main webpage has a variety of ways to contact us. I also encourage folks if you want to do if you're a visual learner and you like videos, Microsoft has an enable YouTube channel that has lots of videos of folks on our team talking about different issues and the work we're doing. So that's a great place to sort of get to meet us before you decide who you want to connect with and reach out that way. But we'd love to continue the conversation and be connected.
[00:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a joke. I always say that I really meant Windows 9.
Windows 9 never ever had its chance to shine in the sun. I've been using Windows primarily since 3.1 and I can say with confidence that that includes using 11 and 10 before it for years now. And I can confidently say that I most surely do not know all of the extensibility features that Microsoft packs in to their latest updates.
And so even advocates have stuff to learn about the technology we use and rely on.
Are we more so than our non disabled counterparts on a daily basis?
Garland, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and for letting us peek behind the curtain on the bedrock part of my good solve. It may have been a after thought years ago, but it certainly is not now. And it's again I keep coming back to it's very hardening to hear that big tech giants, no matter who they are, collaborate on accessibility features and then you embed them in your priority technology.
But as lay people it's not really thought of or we don't really assume that. There's a lot of active collaboration and actively collaborating on a major part of usability ads. Accessibility has only strengthened every company who had collaborated and I thank you for letting us see that in action and I hope you will come back again soon.
[00:43:47] Speaker B: Thanks so much. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: You have been lit listening to disability empowerment. Now I would like to thank my guests, you, Olitzner and the Disability Empowerment Team that made this episode possible.
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