Vision, Leadership, and Lifelong Connections: The Story of Ryan Miller

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Digibility Empowerment now season four. I'm your host, Keith Mavidi Concini. Today I'm talking to my dear friend Ryan Miller who is the co lead padster at the Notch Kids Road Tucson. Ryan, welcome to the show. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Oh, delighted to be here, Keith. Thanks for having me. [00:00:40] Speaker A: So I've told the story of how we met across three different episodes preceded that and I'm going to tell it again because as you well know, I'm a storyteller at heart. And it's one of my favorite stories to tell because it really showed me how God took a chance encounter of three people. Two already knew each other. I was taking ballroom dance legends because according to my life coach at the time, women liked men who can ballroom dance. [00:01:47] Speaker B: So I've heard. So I've heard. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Shocked you there. And at that class I would the only one without a partner. And I love to people watch. I don't know why. But then since dance class and so I watch the legs and I zoom in on who I later found out would be you and Megan. Traitor. At that time I thought because of the height difference you were brother and sister. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Oh, oh, okay. I see. I see how the story works for you. [00:02:35] Speaker A: I laugh and cringe both. Now that I thought that. That. [00:02:42] Speaker B: It's not that big, Keith. It's not that big. [00:02:44] Speaker A: No, no. But I mean it's also the age difference and I was calculating that. Well, this is weird. And so I developed this story in my head. I was unaware that we had met several days prior at a Cambidge Faith outreach event. Yeah, we actually did not talk at that event. We nodded at each other like good men do. [00:03:27] Speaker B: You know, important nodding. Right. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Yet Renee Berger talked my ear for a happy hour. I know that's totally unlike her, but. So after the dance class we didn't say a word because again, it's dance class and I wasn't feeling social. That's a shocker right there. But two weeks later I'd stumble into to what I now know as the mad road. And you and Megan, who I later found out what? Not even clothes. [00:04:28] Speaker B: You know, sister, fiance. Very similar. Very similar. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So let's go with that. Have fun at the wedding. [00:04:37] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Hope you don't bring that up in the. Yeah. And both you and Megan knew my name already, which freaked me out because I wasn't wearing a name tag. And lunch. Somehow you guys had exp. There should be no reason at all you wouldn't know my name. I didn't sign in. And then. But you and Megan made the connection. And that was 11 years ago. I love that story. The twitch interns me a Ronich. They think you Megan Treachero, who is now your wife and the mother of your five children. [00:05:49] Speaker B: That's true. Yeah. [00:05:50] Speaker A: What you. Yeah, that's how wrong first impressions can be. I laugh and cringe at that. But that is one of my favorite stories to tell because again, it shows the mysterious nature of God and how he walks sometimes out in front, sometimes behind the scenes to bring certain people who he knows needs each other together. And so I've enjoyed telling that story in four separate episodes. So let's get into the history of the mask road, starting with the name. For those who are unfamiliar, what is the significance of that name and why would you chosen for the church? [00:07:16] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. I actually just talked about this on Sunday. I bring it up periodically. Right. There's a kind of crazy story in the Bible about a Jewish religious leader named Saul who was really militantly and violently opposed to this new sect that they referred to as the Way, which is the people who believed Jesus was the Messiah in the first century. And so he was persecuting, martyring followers of Jesus. And he'd gotten a commission from the Pharisees, the religious council in Jerusalem, to head to Damascus, which is the capital of Syria today, to root out more of these followers of Jesus. And on the road to Damascus, Saul had this transforming, powerful encounter with the risen Jesus. And it transformed his life. And he went from this violent, you know, opponent of Jesus to his greatest advocate. So he, he got a new name. He went from Saul to the Apostle Paul, as he's known today, went on to. To plant many of the churches throughout the Middle east, throughout Asia or sorry, yeah, Asia and then into Europe and wrote many of the books in the New Testament. But it was a huge change in a life. And that's ultimately what we want to see happen in our church. We want to see people who make the journey from someone who is maybe distrusting of God or distrusting of Christians and make that journey to being curious and being open to change and then really seeking is Jesus the way and seeing their life transformed and going on to impact the world the way that Paul did. So we hope and pray that people as they encounter our community will have an opportunity to meet Jesus powerfully and have their lives transformed. [00:08:58] Speaker A: So how long ago did you found found the mad skids road to John and who was there at the very beginning? [00:09:15] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. I mean I moved with my ex wife in almost exactly 20 years ago. So September of 2004, and it was just the two of us for a year. And then throughout the next couple years, a group of 15 to 20 of my friends, who all went to college together in Missouri at Truman State University, moved to Tucson to help start our church, including four of our members who are still here. My brother Brad and his wife Lacey, and then Dave Chanaki and his wife Erica, who are still part of our community today. So there was a group of about 20 of us over the first few years that helped get the church off the ground. We started meeting at a bookman's a little bit and in people's houses. And then our first kind of permanent location was espresso art there in University, in Main Gate Square, near campus at U of A. And then we moved on to campus and have been doing worship services on campus for now about 17 years. Yeah. So that's the quick version of the beginning. Yeah. [00:10:16] Speaker A: So how did you. And I know some of this already. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Sure. [00:10:26] Speaker A: How did you get the call to not only follow Jesus, but become a pastor? [00:10:40] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's. You know, we'll do the. The too long, didn't read version because this. This could go on for a while. We're not just having coffee. People are listening in. Yeah. But I. I remember my dad. My senior year of high school. He and I would have breakfast together, and he. He had a background on working on campuses and. And doing. Doing campus ministry at the University of Colorado in Oregon State. And I think by the time I hit my senior year in high school, I think he felt like I spent all this time with college students and helped them further their walk with Jesus. Maybe I should do the same thing with my son. And we were going over some vocational things, like, what are my gifts? What am I interested in? And. And I said, well, I like English. I love reading, which is one of the reasons you and I connect so well. I love performing arts, so definitely moving that direction. You know, fine art sort of stuff. But I wasn't sure how that translated into a job in any way. And I was like, well, I like to read. I like to write. And I guess I don't want to be a teacher, so it seems like journalism is the way to go. So that. And my dad said, you know, like, have you. Have you thought about doing ministry? And I was like, why would I do that? That sounds terrible. My. My only. I was like, maybe I'd be a youth pastor, because youth pastors are cool and they play video games and ultimate frisbee and like, they. They get to hang out with the high school that. You know, I was in high school at the time. I thought that was a lot of fun, but, like, just someone who spoke on Sunday mornings. And that was my whole understanding of what someone in ministry was. Then I went off to Truman State, as I mentioned, in Kirksville, Missouri, for my freshman year of college. And ultimately God kind of really got through to me and communicated in a way that I would receive. I believe that God is always communicating. We just aren't always paying attention. We're not always listening. And so for me, one of the ways that he really speaks to me, and I know you and I have talked about this is through film. Like, I think God's fingerprints are in pop culture. And if I have the eyes to see, there are messages that I think he's tailoring for people in that moment. And for me, it was watching the movie Patch Adams with Robin Williams. My freshman year of college was huge for me because I saw this kind of non traditional doctor surrounded by a community that saw patients as problems, as numbers. They didn't know their names. They were just symptoms that needed to be healed. And if it wasn't possible to heal, then they were just on to the next. Right. So there wasn't this personal connection of real care. And Patch Adams was unique where he pursued people and got to know their names and actually cared for them whether they became well or not. And I was sitting in the movie theater watching this non traditional doctor kind of challenge, at least that kind of medical community he was in at the time. And this was 25 years ago or so when the movie came out. And I had, like, fireworks going off in my head. And I was thinking, this is. This is what Christians do is. [00:13:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Is they want to see people get well in their minds. Right. But they care more about that than they care about the person. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:42] Speaker B: And so that was a moment of me saying, like, God speaking directly to me, saying, this is what I want you to do. I want you to love people well, regardless of whether they ever decide to follow Jesus. And I believe following Jesus is the best way to live. I think that it's good and beautiful, but everybody's free to choose their own path. And that's not something that can be forced on them. That's something that you lovingly and winsomely invite people into the possibility that maybe Jesus is more than they thought he was. And so God was speaking to me in that moment saying, this is your future because I want you to learn how to Love people well. And my favorite verse is 1st Thessalonians 2. 8, that says, we love you so much that we share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well, because you become so dear to us. And that's one of the verses that Apostle Paul penned. And I just love that because we loved you so much that we shared our lives with you and we shared about Jesus, but we shared our lives and there was a continuation of sharing your lives regardless of whether someone embraces the way of Jesus or not. And so that was kind of the moment that got God, got my attention, saying, hey, this is. This is your future. I still didn't know what that meant. I was in a band in college, so I thought maybe music was the way to do that. My friend Dave, who was part of our church, and I were in a band together. But as I went on throughout college and then a couple years after it, there was just so much joy in finding creative ways to make connections to the message of Jesus with pop culture, with ways that young people could hear and understand, an intelligent and winsome understanding of the teachings of Jesus that most people have not encountered. And that began to excite me and I became passionate about that. I would wake up thinking about, oh, you know, I could talk about it this way, or, man, I just saw this movie. So like Patch Adams or whatever, that helped me unlock something in my heart and maybe that would be helpful for somebody else. And so we began doing events that were connecting pop culture and faith and helping them sort through that. And I didn't want to stop doing that. I was in a small town of only about 17,000 people. And so when you graduated college, you had to go somewhere and most people just went back home. And I said, what would it look like if instead of going back home, those of us who'd been so impacted by this community that we found in college, what if we went somewhere together? What if we started a ministry or planted a church in a university area, continued the sort of ministry that was so impactful for us and offered that to others. And so that's where the recruiting of a team came and moved to Tucson after a big research project and, and, and feeling. Feeling like my ex wife and I actually just the two of us visited Tucson and as we walked around, it was. It was kind of like this lightning bolt moment, which doesn't happen. You know, I could talk about a movie where I felt like God was speaking to me and everything. Tucson, where I felt like it was really clear that is not the standard in my life. I don't think. I don't think it's always clear. I think a lot of time God asks us to choose, and he's a loving father who's with us either way. But those were two moments where I. Where I undoubtedly felt like God was speaking to me and. And walking around Tucson the first time, it's like, this is. I don't know how to explain it other than this is where we're supposed to go. This is where God's calling us. And so that started the process, like I said, moved just over 20 years ago. [00:16:49] Speaker A: So I know how you met Brad. Big, good Seeds, family. [00:16:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:57] Speaker A: Of course. It would be weird any other way to meet one of your brothers any other way. Right, but how did you meet Dave? You touched on it a little before, but as one of the remaining founding team members, how did that friendship come about? [00:17:33] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. My sophomore year of college, I was an RA in the dorms. I did it for one year, and that was the. That was it. That was enough. But Dave lived a floor below me in Dobson hall in Truman State University. And I had another friend who I knew well, that was. That was his R.A. and I'd said, hey, if any of you. I. I was thinking about starting a band, doing some music stuff. I said, hey, if any of you knows anybody who plays the guitar, let me know. I'd love to meet him. Where we're trying to do some music stuff. And so my friend Adrian introduced me to. She said, hey, this is the room he lives in. You should. You should go say, hi. His name's Dave. So I like, you know, there are names on all the doors. So I walked around the corner on the third floor, Dobson, and knocked on his door. And it was one of those, you know, in some ways, like. Like you said, the chance meetings can change lives. And I was, you know, bold enough to. To introduce myself to somebody I didn't know and just say, hey, Dave, I. Adrian told me that you play the guitar. Would you be interested in. In helping with some music that we're trying to get started? And that. That was the beginning of. Of a long and deep friendship because he said yes, and we started writing music together. We started attending the same ministry in college, became great friends, were in each other's weddings, and are still here today. But it's similar. Similar to the dance class, right, Keith? You never know the moment that you'll meet somebody and you look back 10 years later, 11 years later, and say, that was a pivotal moment. And I Didn't even know. And if I wasn't, didn't have the eyes to see or the bravery to say hi or to remember someone's name, even if you just saw it. Even if I just. I think, I think I probably remembered it because Renee said, oh, that's. That guy's name is Keith. I talked to him for a while. His name is Keith. Right. And I was like, oh, you know, he was in this dance class and then you showed up. It's like, ah. I just think there's so much power in remembering someone's name and it can kind of creep someone out. Right. If you don't think they should know it, sometimes you realize, oh, I have a name tag on. That's why you know. But it is significant when you meet someone new to remember who they are and when you see them again, to value them enough to call them by name and to extend a welcome, even if it's surprising. I would rather be a place where we're open handed inviting people into community as opposed to expecting them to initiate everything. And so I know it was cut you off guard. [00:19:57] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:19:59] Speaker B: I'd rather catch you off guard by knowing your name than catch you off guard for negative reasons. Right. There are lots of other ways we could catch people off guard. [00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I would show embarrassment finding out who Megan really was because I had been staring at your legs and circulating both of you like a hungry vulture the entire night that I didn't. For the first two years I kept apologizing to Megan and told. She told me to stop because I was so embarrassed. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Well, I think my wife is striking and. And she's kind both which you don't always get. And so you know, I think often we find ourselves apologizing because we're still carrying concern or guilt or fear. Right. Even if the other person, you know, is no longer thinking about it. You apologize like, oh, it's no problem, Keith. Like we understand and now we're good friends. You know my family very well. Right? Yeah. And you needed you. You needed a partner to dance with. It's okay. Yeah, I think, I think that was reasonable. [00:21:18] Speaker A: And I would not about to ask either of you but I would have been good judge embarrassed if she was your sister. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Just maybe different. Right. [00:21:35] Speaker A: It would have been objectifying either way. Even though I didn't mean that at all. And I mean the context is important but I would like not only did I get that relationship wrong, I basic like what's in your gadget spades for the entire cloud because you Two killed it. I mean, it is very kind. [00:22:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Like, you guys reminded me of my parents. And when they dance, they'll wipe the floor with everyone else and. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we. We were trying to be ready for our wedding reception. Right. So we could not make fools of ourselves. And. And, you know, my wife likes dancing, and I have a background doing performing arts and show choir and some ballroom dance and swing dance. So it was easy to agree to. Is. I'm good with choreography. Like, just. Just doing dancing on your own is separate and different and challenging. And you have to be willing to make a fool of yourselves, which is often. Often hard for people. But I do think it's. It's a good lesson. Keith, in. We often tell ourselves stories either about people we don't know when we're people watching or even an interaction with people. Like, why did this person say this? Maybe this is going on. And we build up this whole narrative in our heads. And it's good to have the humility to discover, oh, the story is different. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:15] Speaker B: That I realized. And to rewrite that script in your head and to apologize if you need to. But, like, we wouldn't have known what you were thinking unless. Unless you said it. [00:23:23] Speaker A: No. [00:23:23] Speaker B: And so your transparency is to your credit. [00:23:28] Speaker A: Make Megan wrapped when she heard that in. I mean, she understood. I mean, the very idea that an older brother is helping his younger sister prepare to dance at her promise. It's a very realistic, understandable story to tell. I mean, it just happened to be the furthest from the truth in this example. But. So the church has evolved like all of us have all the time. I want to remember to say that the band you and Dave were in. Until tomorrow. [00:24:30] Speaker B: Until tomorrow, that's right. [00:24:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Dave still had written one of my favorite songs of all time, simple man, from your Fudge album. I'm waiting for album number three. [00:24:53] Speaker B: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. [00:24:56] Speaker A: Waited and I've been waiting and that that's the only reason I'd still go to doctor. [00:25:05] Speaker B: I see. I see. Just someday that album will drop, right? [00:25:08] Speaker A: I want that album. [00:25:10] Speaker B: Well, we're not. We're not as prolific as you are, Keith. You, man, you dropping albums, you know, consistently, which is impressive, so. [00:25:16] Speaker A: Well, thank you. It helps that it's like Tronica and I have a lot of technology. There's a reason why I don't sing on, like, Tronica. I'd sound horrible. And to sing on that type of music is like doing acrobats. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Constantly aerobics, actually. So we've known each other for almost 12 years. [00:25:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:59] Speaker A: How. How had the. What are some of the milestones of that doctor had undergone. I know we all went through a significant period. Period of trauma a few years back where I was. God had me on the sidelines for a reason or two. But even before that, trauma which radically changed the church. And you would hope it would do that. You would hope that a church would change without having to go through those radical periods of trauma, betrayal, et cetera, et cetera. But what are some milestones from the beginning to now? You're the judge is 20 years old and almost completely legal. Just one more year. [00:27:30] Speaker B: Right? Right, right. Then the church can have a beer with us, right? [00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the other region I'm sticking around. But what have been some of the highlights of growth and some of the areas in which the church is constantly improving upon? And what are your gonna Sound very clean. What are your hopes and dreams for the next five, ten years of demand? Skids road. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Well, I guess, you know, how much time do we have? Right. Yeah. I mean, I think. I think one of the most beautiful things about doing ministry is people and seeing them change and grow and mature and embrace a life that is free and easy, that is marked by joy and love and peace and patience, which I think is a miraculous thing in our world. And one of the hardest things in life is the navigating life with people and the challenges that come there. Right. And there's. There's pain. God does beautiful things in redeeming the pain that we go through if we let them. But it doesn't make it any. Any easier. Like I made mention to my ex wife, so I went through a rough divorce before I met my present wife. It was incredibly painful, but God was also incredibly present during that time for me. And I have a greater sensitivity to marital dysfunction and to people in times of pain that I would have without ever going through that. And I think that there's some empathy there that I wouldn't have otherwise. You know, so for the church itself, you go from kind of not existing. There's a group of us who started, but we didn't know anybody. We, you know, just dropped in from the Midwest into Arizona, which is a very different environment. And so you go through a period of learning the culture, because we want to be people who love the city that you're in and love the people as they are, not how you might hope them to be. And they can be helpful to the people as you're there. So Almost all of us ended up graduating from either U of A or, or I have my seminary degree from Phoenix Seminary just up the road. So we, we did education and made Tucson. Those of us are still here, made Tucson our home. And that really helps in, in caring for a community. And so, you know, there, there are milestones and in just. We exist on campus, we started a small group. Now there's multiple small groups. We're having a Sunday morning service and worship experience. We're meeting, we met from meeting Sunday nights to Sunday mornings. And so there are lots of things like that, you know, having, you know, we've always. Because of working with a transient community. So we meet on campus at the University of Arizona and that's. We've met on campus there for, like I said, I think 17 years. We, we are the path of least resistance to students who are trying to, to follow Jesus at U of A and are looking for a church community. But that also means that when you're dealing with young people, when you're dealing with students or recent graduates, they move a lot. They're, they're heading off, you know, they're getting married, they're having children, they're finding new jobs. And so we've been consistently in the 50 to 75 range once we stabilize. So reach. Reaching a point of stabilization was a big deal. Like, hey, there we have. We're not going to disappear tomorrow. We're here. We're going to be here. But we just finished a series where we're having some people share testimonies of how God has transformed their life. A little bit like Paul on the road to Damascus. And I think that some of the biggest milestones are just seeing people who've really embraced the way of Jesus, who've learned to live a life, the good life of loving God and loving others deeply. Because I think that's what, that's what a rich and satisfying life in the way of Jesus really is. And I think in our world, having deep relationships with others, with people, having a deep relief with God, produces in us joy that we can't find anywhere else. And we can pursue a lot of things for the good life, but they rarely deliver. It's not about travel, it's not about pleasure, it's not about success. It's about deep, lasting relationships. And I think Jesus moves us into that direction. And so when I think back of all the people, baptism is one of those moments. It's kind of like the wedding ceremony in a life of faith, right? Is you're saying publicly, I'M declaring for Jesus and I'm going through the ceremony in a community that's being celebrated together. So I've been thinking about all the people who've been baptized over the years, and some of those people are still in our church and some of those people have gone off, gone on to do other wonderful things. Yeah. And so I think that that's always really powerful and significant, you know, like, I mean, for our church there, there have been hard times, like I said, I, I went through a painful divorce and I was the kind of the founding pastor. And so that's a huge challenge. And I think that God protect us in some ways from growing bigger for that to be more traumatic for people. I mean, mostly that was between me and my ex wife, but when you're part of a larger community. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:54] Speaker B: What's happening in our lives impacts other people. And that's always the case. You know, if something's going on with you that impacts me, even if. Yeah, it's not personal in the same way, like the pain that you experience, whether that's something with your parents or your family member, your love life or whatever it is, is something that me, as a good friend at the very least, is aware of and is praying for and is talking to you about, it's not helping carry that burden a little bit. And so when you're leading a community that's larger, the impact is greater. So excuse me. And so I think that was a big challenge. Then, you know, I met Megan at church and she was serving in our church and then we got married. So that's also a weird thing to go through as a church to see your main pastor not only get divorced, but then date someone and get married to them who is from the church and with a, with an age gap. Significant, Lee. But I think that for the most part what happens in a community like ours when you start, when you're started by people in the community, is as the leaders mature and grow, the church matures and grows as well. And as God brings more people into the community, their gifts and passions help change the church as well. And so I think that as I've grown as a leader, as our of the other core people have grown, I think if you become more serious about actually following the way of Jesus in a practical sense. So what does it look like to live life after the way Jesus did? What are the practices he had in his life? You know, what does it look like to practice silence and solitude and rest in God's love and practice Sabbathing, where You actually stop and rest and worship and enjoy the good life that we have once a week. So we get off the treadmill of performance. What does it look like to actually be generous with our money, to give radically so that money doesn't have a hold on our souls. So there are all these practices of Jesus that we can't expect to live the life of Jesus without actually attempting to live it his way. And so I think that we have moved more towards spiritual formation is what it's called, which is one of the things that Jesus did that helped him live in rhythm with the Spirit of God in his life. He has some unique advantages that we don't have. But, but we can learn from, from the Master of Life. And he's offering for us to take on his easy yoke and to live freely and lightly in his way. So I think we're very, we're very serious about that. And that's big. Been a big shift that probably wasn't significant initially, but. And we've changed locations a few times. [00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:27] Speaker B: And so, you know, we started in the student union. We were then in an environment and natural resource building network, McClellan Park. And there are always good and bad things about change like that. But we feel like God has blessed us and brought us to where we're supposed to be in many instances. And I would say that there's still a significant desire to find ways to connect pop culture to what we're talking about to help. I believe that pop culture is the language of the people. And I think if we're wise in communication that we can use that. Well, for instance, we're about to do a four week series that's about kind of, kind of Christian civic engagement. What does it look like in a political world to follow Jesus? Well, first to be a citizen of the kingdom of God, but also to be good citizens in a country in which we are called or have the opportunity to vote. What does it mean to be a good citizen? What should we expect from the government? How should power be used? You know, what, what about the economy? There are all these things that we're about to, to start talking about and obviously that's on people's minds. So we want to address topics that are going on in culture, but we also want to find ways to winsomely invite people to engage, especially in topics that are hard to talk about. So I don't know how up you are on Saturday Night Live, but very, but Nate Bargazzi is a, is a great comic that just hosted Saturday Night Live. And he hosted, I think, a few years ago as well. And he had a skit a few years ago, and then they did a second one just this past weekend or two weekends ago, where he's. He's playing George Washington and sharing his vision for the country. And so. And it's. It's complete deadpan comedy, talking about the unique things like I dream of a country where instead of using meters, we're going to use, you know, a totally obscure measurement system that no one will understand. And we're going to make it hard, right? And so finding things like that that can intro us into it with humor and connection to pop culture. And the video that someone. I mean, I think that the George Washington skit he did sharing his vision for the United States from a few years ago has millions and millions and millions of views on YouTube. And so it's an easy way to say, like, hey, here's. Here's where we're headed today. We're going to talk a little bit about what it means to be a citizen of America. While we're following Jesus, we're going to talk a little bit about what it means to what a theology of government looks like. And so we want to find moments like that. So in one of our gatherings, we'll have some kind of connection to pop culture. We'll do some singing and worshiping, declaring the truth about who God is and who we are in relation to him through song. And then we'll do some teaching. But we always bring it back to a couple core practices. We always take communion, which is remembering Jesus, Last Supper, his life, death, and resurrection, as well as we do some kind of. Some kind of reflective activity, personal reflection, and then some kind of corporate activity which says we actually don't want to just be hearers of the Word, but we want to be doers of the Word. So we don't just want to be people who learn about the way of Jesus, we want to actually practice the way of Jesus. So it's like, if you go work out, Keith, or if you read a lot, you're like, oh, if I eat this way, or if I do these exercises, I will look different, but I can learn those things. Until I actually do them, nothing changes. And the trouble is, I think in many church situations, it's a lot of spectating. You kind of participate in singing, but you're mostly listening to somebody else talk. You're listening to somebody else pray. You're sitting in a seat. And we want to find ways to have people get up and Move around and actually practice, actually talk to people in the community. Because we want to be a community. So you get up and you take communion. We do some kind of practice together. We discussed what was spoken about that that Sunday. Or we try, we do some scripture memorization, we do electio divina, we do some journaling. There are lots of different ways that we can engage. And so I think that, you know, from when you came 11 years ago, 12 years ago, to what we're doing now, there have been. There's continuity. Right. It makes sense how we ended up where we are. There's more practice than there was. Yeah, we're actually next semester doing. We're not calling it Pop Culture Jesus, but we're doing a series that's going to connect to pop culture stuff again, which we haven't done in a little while, but that's still a core value of ours. We want to meet people where they are and that matters. And so it's just always balancing the sacred and the secular. I don't think there's actually a divide there, but people have certain expectations when they arrive at church. And you can't meet everybody's desires. So we're trying to do the best to be who we are called to be and hope that we'll find people who are looking for a community where you can really know people, where there's a connection to the world around us and what's happening, where there's taking the life of Jesus seriously and having a community in which there's a winsome and intelligent presentation of who he was, who he is and his message today. So there have been a lot of challenges and changes, but one of my hopes is that we'll continue to grow on campus, that we'll continue to especially grow our non student population because that's where the real stability comes from. And then we've seen a great community of students continue to be around our church and we want to see them embrace the way of Jesus, see them go on to be successful, flourishing human beings, whether they're in Tucson or elsewhere. And to help other places do that. One of my roles is that I help coach people doing ministry on campus and doing churches all over the United States and Central America as well. [00:40:58] Speaker A: So one of the shifts that I've noted when I left in 18 to 20, I've noticed we've had a lot more influx of students than we did sure when I would there, which is odd because we didn't move campuses and the university did not change. And so I don't know how that shift happened in because when I first came I Woods student. Your wife was a student? Tyler student. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Who's our executive pastor now, right? [00:42:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Kids White student. I really don't know how what inspired that market mocked change in the makeup of the judge. We have a lot of older members but we also have a very strong younger population that I don't think was there or words as prevalent or maybe we were structured differently back in the day, I don't know. But what was that like coming through trauma and we don't have to go through the trauma but coming through that and embracing this new itch population? I don't know if we had a campage manager when I arrived. We do now. Maybe that would Renee when I arrived and I just didn't make the connection. But we do have a full time campage minister now who once be honest, it's not going to leave with the church for good and we really lucky to have her and but so how is it going through this major shake up of trauma, of betrayal, coming out the other side and really hitting the ground running with servants of a younger population while also dealing with the after effects and after shocks of trauma and betrayal which we've done great in my opinion. But I wasn't there. I. I got Covid I would down out for the count. [00:45:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:06] Speaker A: So. And yeah. So what was that like? [00:45:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think that we, we've always had a. Had a soul maybe soul, heart, connect, connection is too strong. But the, but the university community has been our target as a church, which is unusual. Right. So most churches that are successful in the United States, especially in suburban areas. Right. Which is where I grew up, are family churches. Right. There's stability there, there's money there. As long as you provide good children's programs, youth programs, families will stay even if they don't love every aspect of the church. But that means that there's this huge gap of people who aren't in the church because they're not being focused on very well. And generally it happens in the 18 to 30ish range. Right. So once someone leaves home, goes off to college, has to sort through who. Who am I really? What tends to happen is if they're going to come back, if they don't stay connected to the church through that process, if they often will come back once they get married and start having children and say oh man, that was really significant to me. I'd like my kids to have that and I could use some support. Like having kids is Hard, you know, it, it takes a village and a church community provides some help there. Not just in how can I do this? Well, but some childcare, any number of things, some investment in children spiritually. And so I've been convicted for a long time that there's something good and beautiful about the college age people who are finding their way towards Jesus, who have a freedom to follow him wherever he's calling them to go and don't have the obligations of a job or a family in the same sense yet. Right. So the heart has always been there and we've been on campus the whole time. So we've always had a student community. Summertime, when you're part of the sin community, it feels like the non sin community is really large. And it was. But the challenge that we run into is that we're not a family church. And so as people will have it doesn't mean we don't care for children. We have children's ministry but it's not robot, it's not like a preschool. Our church isn't huge. We can do what we can do. I have five kids, there are children around, but initially I didn't have children. So we didn't have much childcare for a while. Eventually we had to make the transition to say if we want to keep families we need to at least provide childcare on Sunday mornings and invest in their kids spiritually. So that was a huge shift which we didn't have that for, you know, say the first, the first five years at least. We didn't do any child care hardly at all. And then some of our leaders started having children and we had to figure out what are we going to do about this? Are they just going to be of the service? Yes. That was a significant shift for us from going from not doing anything for kids to actually having some kids ministry happening. And because of the transient nature of young people who are graduating, some of them will graduate and go elsewhere, some will stay for a little while, some will get married and go to another church, some will move to another area that we have had some stable amount. You mentioned some names that have been around our church for a while. But for the most part our adult community were students who became postgraduates and are still in our community. And then we've attracted some people from the Tucson area which we are really thankful for. But as we grow together, you know, some of the time you grow apart and some of the time people make decisions that lead them in new directions, either away from Jesus or into different sort of communities. Or into one that has a different emphasis than ours. We have a specific emphasis on the university context, which means that we have a significant desire to protect the young students who are coming into our church. So. So we. We want especially our adult community to be healthy and to engage with younger students. Well, the same way we would if you're going to engage in kids ministry or high school ministry. Yeah, college ministry has some similarities. Parents are trusting their children while they're away from home to our spiritual care. And we. That. That matters to us. So not everyone is a good fit for the type of community we have, nor do they always want to be around students. But if you are excited about seeing young people and being in a church that is full of young people and whenever I meet somebody like man there, there are other people like me here and there are lots of wonderful churches around Tucson. But we have a unique demographic because of the age, the average age of our community, the average age of our staff. And it doesn't. I mean, we would love. I mean, if I'm honest, I'm praying for more people in their 50s and 60s who are passionate to see college students find the way of Jesus and. And be involved in a vibrant community that's winsome and intelligent and committed to the way of Jesus and spiritual formation and seeing young people on that journey and helping them. And we have some people like that that are really vital to our church. Yeah. But it's incredibly painful to see friendships fall apart, see people that you've mentored go in new directions and make. Make decisions where it doesn't seem like your stories are going to be going to intersect much anymore. And I think one of the best things as we mature in life is to learn how to mourn well. And so you mourn and you weep over lost relationships, lost friendships. I mean, I'm old enough now that the number of funerals I'm going to is increasing. You know, my mom died and you have to learn how to mourn that. Well. [00:50:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:24] Speaker B: And it's, you know, I wish that she had not died, but I also know that that's coming for everybody. And so my, My first marriage died. These relationships that were significant for a long time, some have, you know, they become people that you used to know and you're thankful for the good times that you had and you mourn over the lost relationships. And as a leader of a church community, it is particularly painful to not just see people that you invested in leave, but. Or make decisions that you're concerned about, but just to have Just, I mean there's joy when people want to be a part of community and then there's sadness when they don't. Even if it's for a good reason, even if they're moving away, even if it's, hey, our kids like this other church and we know that that's going to happen and we're to go where our kids want to go. Even though we love those people, they love us, they love being in our community. And so I try, my wife and I especially who co pastor together, we try to be open handed and open hearted where we trust God that he loves people more than we ever could and that he loves our church more than we do and that it doesn't all depend on us and that we will do our best to love others well and to be winsome, but also understand what our limits are. We can't meet every need, we can't be everyone's best friend. We have five children, so we only have so much time to give. But we can do our best to try and create a community in which people feel welcome, to try out the way of Jesus, to pursue the next step in their journey and to engage in what it looks like to actually follow him together. And one of the big changes for me was moving in. So in some ways the campus minister, when you connected was me, right. I was the pastor and on campus all the time, right? [00:52:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:05] Speaker B: And at the time it was just me and then Renee who's on staff with us, who's now a wonderful therapist in town and still involved in our. [00:52:13] Speaker A: Church, who literally works a few doors down my house. [00:52:20] Speaker B: Yeah, she's like, yeah, very, very close to where you are. You guys got to get lunch more, man. She's right there, you know. [00:52:25] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. [00:52:26] Speaker B: My sister in law works right over there as well. But our staff has grown. So what's good is as we have cared for people well and invested in people, our volunteer staff and our and our paid staff has grown so that now all of our staff except for me are graduates of the University of Arizona. [00:52:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:47] Speaker B: So we have my wife who co pastors with me, Tyler, who's the executive pastor, Devin, who's our campus minister, Jacob, who's our worship pastor, and I could go on. We have more that are giving of their time significantly. And as the team grows, my role changes. Right. So instead of me being the main person on campus, my role now becomes to care for the people on the team well, and my wife does that as well. And so, so as Tyler kind of runs the day to day operations of the church. I do vision and direction and teaching. My wife does small groups and discipleship stuff. And Devin focused primarily on students, which doesn't mean I have nothing to do with students. But I used to spend almost all of my time on campus meeting with students, and I can't do that anymore. I don't. I have. My role has changed, so I have to be a different sort of leader. And I have. I have a role outside of our church, which is investing in people doing similar ministry across the United States and Mexico and Central America. And so my time gets divided between our local community. I would spend about 25% of my vocational time here in Tucson and about 75% of it that's beyond Tucson. And that's only possible because we have a really incredible team. And so Devin, who does wonderful work with students. My wife is very gifted. Tyler's wife, Megan Stibrich, who does our kids. We have incredibly gifted, intelligent, godly people who are doing lots of things that we could never do when it was just me or it was just me and Renee or just me and Tyler, you know. And so as people join our community, as they begin serving in their gifting, things change, roles shift. And my. My role has always been my primary gifts are in leadership and vision. And in some ways, I'm a generalist, so I can fill the gaps where they need to be filled. Like, for a while, I've been in charge of hospitality, which, you know. You know, so that at our church, that's making the coffee, that's making sure that people feel welcomed when they arrive, that we prepared for them, that there's some coffee, there's some tea, there's. There's a snack to help you feel like welcomed and cared for. So as you enter a community, especially for the first time, that you can feel at home at least a little bit. And so I picked that up because there was a gap, not because I'm good at it, but because I value it. And my goal is not to keep doing that. Right. That's not my job. My job is to do all these other things, but in part of that is to help raise up the right people to run with that. And right now, one of our interns, Sam, is starting to do the Dr. Coffee Bar. He's a barista at Starbucks. And so once a month he's making fancy drinks. Right? Right. It makes it easy. And he'll. He'll train other people. Keith, you want to learn how to make a flat white? Sam's got your back man, he can. He can help you out. So there's just this constant evolution when you're loving people. Well, caring for them. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Well, Kluge. Kahlua. Right. [00:55:32] Speaker B: Well, you know, you do you, Keith, you bring your flask, and no one's gonna ask about it. Right. But, yeah. Yeah. The joy of ministry is people. The challenge of ministry is people. And. And that's where. Where both the major highs and significant lows happen. And they happen in our lives, too. Right. Like, whether it's our family or our friends, the good things and bad things happen there. And as you're in a greater community, the advantage is you're not in it alone, you're in it together, and you can weather things together as needed, but it's tough. Yeah. [00:56:10] Speaker A: So we haven't really touched on disability in the community, which I would be behooving to do. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Right. What podcast are we on? Right. Yeah. [00:56:27] Speaker A: Yes. Add. The community grows more diverge. You have no. Divergent. We have a few members who are on the autism spectrum. We have add. We have ocd. We have cerebral palsy. Yeah. That has grown significantly throughout the time. Yeah. I've seen and not been in the community when I was in New York. How has that expanded the community mindset? [00:57:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think that. That in a community that's being faithful to the way of Jesus, there's space for everybody. Right. There's. There's no. No one group has a corner on God. And we have an opportunity to invite people in who often struggle to find robust support and community because of neurodivergence, because of uniqueness. And you and I have talked significantly, Keith. All of us have areas where we are different than others. And if we're honest, there's. There's some aspects of. Of my life that I want to project an image of who. Who I am to others. And so sometimes we want to hide some things about who we are. You know, I don't often lead with, oh, I was divorced, you know, oh, I'm. I'm 11 years older than my wife. Like, whatever it is, there are things like that. Right. And the difference in some of us is in the same way that I'm starting to get gray hair, so if I grow my beard out, it's all white, and I can no longer pass as a college student, which I shouldn't be able to anyway. But it's been 20 years since I was in college, more than that, and. [00:58:42] Speaker A: That'S creeping me out. [00:58:47] Speaker B: Well, being in a school that has a robust graduate program, you don't look that different than many people walking around campus. [00:58:53] Speaker A: No, no. But if I fully shave, I mean, I still get carded in bars, which is why I don't go to bars, because people think I just graduated high school school. [00:59:11] Speaker B: And I'm like, that's a tough problem, Keith. You know, all of us are getting older. We're jealous. [00:59:17] Speaker A: Not. But we cut. Yeah. [00:59:24] Speaker B: Yeah, we. You know, there are. When you create space for people and you create real community and you show real care. Like, I know. I think Nathan has been on the. [00:59:33] Speaker A: Podcast Nathan Mega Infinity. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Right. Who are all neurodivergent. And I think that when you create real community and real space for people to be on their journey, wherever that is, and you don't have a set determined like you have to be here, you have to act like this. If there's space for people to be in process and for things to be a little messy, that creates space for. For. For the beautiful mess that God catches and carries in the world to. To find. To find space there. And so we. We've done. We've really tried to make space for people who. Who sometimes struggle to find community elsewhere. Because that's one of the beautiful things about following Jesus is. Is this community is centered on Jesus, not on the ways that we're exactly the same. So it's not. It's not about our racial background, it's not about our socioeconomic background. It's not about our political ideologies. It's about Jesus. And we lay all of our identities down for the cross and choose Jesus first. And from there we can move forward even if we don't agree on all sorts of other things. Like, I think our church is politically diverse. I think there's just. There's just a lot of diversity in our community, which is hard to find in this world. And I think. I think a church is one of the only places you could find it in a healthy, functioning church. And there are many that you and I both know have become partisan politically or where you only find one sort of person. [01:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:02] Speaker B: And I think that that is to the detriment of the people in the community. There are good things about living in close relationship and really loving someone in which you disagree about other things or you have a different life experience. And I think. I think for people who are neurodivergent or for people who have not. Not interacted consistently with someone with cerebral palsy, you guys have an incredible ministry in our community in helping all of us realize that God makes beautiful things out of brokenness and all of us have our own challenges. Just some are easier to hide. [01:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:37] Speaker B: So you can't hide your cerebral palsy even if you wanted to. And. [01:01:42] Speaker A: Well, that's not exactly true. I can't hide the amazing sex appeal of my voice. I can't believe I just said that. But really, it's. Thank you for humoring me. My producer is gonna love this part of the interview. If I didn't have my voice was monomalized, which, ironically, alcohol does normalize it. The tension, which is the opposite of what he does to everyone else. [01:02:35] Speaker B: Sure. [01:02:37] Speaker A: You would have to be a OTPT doctor neurologist to spot the cp. [01:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:48] Speaker A: You. You will be able to spot it in my gate, the way I walk, particularly in winter. And we do have winter here, just a little. But it's the voice that. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Catches people of God. And look, it's a big part of my advocacy when I was on the teaching team, I think I made it a part of every message I preached. If I can't talk about it or if I get offended by the questions, I'm gonna be really at my job. I mean, sure, that's judge. And. But the assumptions, and they're hilarious. Now it's either I'm drunk on drugs or not all there. It's like I have two MADS degrees. They don't hand those out in Cracker Jack box. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Right, Right. [01:04:15] Speaker A: I mean, it's like. But I wouldn't trade the. What is referred to as speech impediment. I refer to it as judging of the accent because, like, we got our. [01:04:35] Speaker B: Good friend Mike DeLuca. Right. [01:04:36] Speaker A: Shape it. [01:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And you did a lot of therapy. Right. One of the. One of the advantages to our community. Oh, well, yeah. I'll get to it. One of our advantages we have is we have a lot of SLPs, a lot of speech language pathologists in our church. [01:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And that scared. Which is crap out of me. When I first started preaching, I thought, this guy is setting me up to go in front of the community and be emotionally torn apart. I mean, linguistically torn apart. That if you're talking insecure. [01:05:20] Speaker B: What's. What's. What's nice. What's nice about our people. Right. Is that we have a lot of medical professionals, whether that's speech language pathologists, nurses, doctors running around our church. And they're. They're the kinds that got into it because of empathy and wanting to really care for other people. Right. So some of the time we get trained and we can get real judgy and Sometimes we get trained and we can be really encouraging and we have to choose what narrative we're going to choose. Right. What story am I going to tell myself? And they can tell themselves a story about, look how, look how great Keith is doing. Look, he's clearly done the work so that, so that he can present well and give people a chance to engage. Yeah, engage with something different. Like our, like I was thinking about the accent idea as well before you said it. Like, we've got our friend Mike DeLuca, who's from Boston, who is, who's a big, loud Boston guy with a thick Boston accent. Right. And that's a very different person to listen to as you're talking. I had a good friend in college whose dad was a farmer, and I remember interacting with him the first time and hearing like a rural Missouri accent. And I literally had no idea what was going on. I had no exposure to that way of talking. And he was still speaking English. But I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and had no experience with that. And so it's good for our souls to be around people who are different than us, who talk different than us, who have a different background than us, and to be humble enough to take the position of a learner and learn and ask questions and do the hard work to be in relationship with people who are different than us. And so I think that creating space, like, I've learned a lot more about autism at this point. You know, most of our medical professionals, it's, you know, there's some people like my, my brother in law is a high functioning autistic. My, my father in law is as well. And, and so I'm around that. You know, I've been around a lot of mental health challenges in my family and we've had people who are struggling with self harm that have lived in our home, like a lot of it, just what is, what is the way of Jesus? What does the gospel demand in me, which is to love people well, even if it's hard, and to create safety and welcome to people who are different and let them know that they're loved beyond their ability to understand, regardless of how they talk, regardless of any neurodivergence, and to discover the life that's truly life and what flourishing in their uniqueness, in just how God made them to be and being able to claim the good things and not focus on the challenges. So like you said, like who the bro. The challenges limits the uniqueness that God has built into us, makes us who we are in many ways. And we can spend our lives bucking against that and being angry, or we can spend our lives embracing that and being thankful for the good things that we have and allowing that to create a new future for us. Just like you're doing with disability empowerment now. Right. You would not be in this situation if it were not for your uniqueness, for the limits and the gifts. Right. Because it's both. You're gifted and you have challenges, just like I'm gifted and I have challenges. They're just different. [01:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I actually planned on keeping that my walk separate from the community. And then God said, oh, you really think so? Yeah. So never say never. All damage large words in case there are any inspiring advocates. All people who want to pursue ministry but are concerned about the times we live in. The parties and divide will probably different political parties. Doesn't fades me in relates it's not who you are. I I know one person above all else who doesn't care about politics. God doesn't care about politics. To him, it's probably a silly game that we humans play. But that aside, what would be some advice you would give the next generation of MINUTES students enrolling in ministry to live a authentic and pursue Jesus in a authentic empathetic way and not get bogged down by the various divides that only seek to divide us instead of unite us under one God? [01:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I would tell anybody who's, who's pursuing, who thinks maybe their their futures in ministry that before you're called to a job, before you're called to a mission or success, you're called to a person. And that's a. You're called to have a deep flourishing relationship with Jesus. And so it starts there. What does it look like for you to learn to rest in God's love, to understand that you're loved beyond your ability to comprehend that there's nothing you can do to make God love you more. You're loved completely and there's nothing you can do to lose that love. And then when you have the centered and understanding of your belovedness. Right. Henry Nouwen talks about this is one of the authors you and I have talked about many times and we've preached. [01:11:43] Speaker A: On his works several different times. [01:11:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. He's really, really gifted and helpful in navigating this life with Jesus in our world today. So you start with the center of belovedness and then from there you say what did Jesus do? What was he doing? Not just in his personal life, but in his ministry. When you see that his disciples were made up of a Diverse group, politically opposed people. Right. So you have Simon the zealot, and then you have Matthew the tax collector. And the tax collectors were Roman sympathizers who were working for the empire that was oppressing the Jews, whereas the zealots believed that violent revolution was needed to throw off the chains of their oppressors and to return to the golden age of Israel. Right. So in this group of 12 guys, you have two people who are, who are further apart, further apart than a far right and a far left person politically in our world today. And Jesus found a way to say in this community, this is not going to be your primary identity. Your primary identity is going to be here, and you're going to learn to love people who are different than you. And I do think as much as if we define politics as merely the way we organize the world for the flourishing of our communities. And I think God cares about that because he cares about people. Right. But like our partisan ideas, like what policy issues we think should go where. I mean, I'm, I'm. I'm an independent, which is right in line with Arizona. There are a lot of independents running around here and, and skew kind of apolitical because it's, it could get ugly. And the advantage. Yeah, the advantage of a pastor being and independent is, you know, that I'm not in anybody's pocket and I'm going to do my best to talk about the way of Jesus. That's. That, that means, if I'm honest, there are some things that Republicans advocate for that I think may align with the way Jesus. I think there are many things the Democrats advocate for that may align with the way of Jesus. And a lot of the time it's just how you end up organizing the priority of those that it, you know, it's, it doesn't mean that the Democrats don't care about defense. They care about defense. They just care about it differently than Republicans who care about the environment. They just care about it differently and to different degrees, and they prioritize it differently. And so I would tell people not to avoid engaging. Like, we're, like I said, we're about to do the series. We're going to walk through theology of politics effectively, not to avoid challenging issues, but to come at them in nonpartisan ways to say, like, we're going to, we're going to choose the way of Jesus first. We're going to follow him well. And we are not going to allow the divisions of the world to define us. So even on election day in November, every four years. When this happens, we do an election day communion. So we have an event. Last time it happened during COVID so it was outside. It wasn't everything that I want to do. We do a dinner and we turn off our phones and we put them in a basket and we say, everybody else is focused on what's going to happen tonight. We're going to focus on what unites us and brings us together. And we're going to say in this place, we choose each other and we choose Jesus. And we will get up tomorrow and the world will still be revolving. God still is catching and carrying this beautiful mess that we live in. And I will still choose you as a friend, and I'll still choose someone else's friend, regardless of who you voted for, even if we have strong opinions. But good people who, following the way of Jesus, can often align in certain values. But there's a big difference between things that you care about and a policy that you think is the best policy for the flourishing of others. And there's no perfect party and there's no perfect politician. And when we place our hope there, we will be let down. Right? [01:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:29] Speaker B: So we try and go into it with open eyes and clear eyes and say, I'm going to follow King Jesus first, and then I will do my best to be a citizen. But this doesn't define me. This isn't my primary identity. I don't have to be angry or scared. And I think those are the two defaults. Like, there's so much fear and stoking of fear to mobilize votes. And I. We just. We just reject that. We're not. We're not. Not about that. So. And there. There actually was. There's an evangelical statement, evangelical confession of 2024, that I think maybe we can throw it up in the. In the show notes, potentially is a really good. A really good thing that covers, like, what does it look like? The first one is just, we give allegiance to Jesus Christ alone. This is. This is our center. And so in a world that's divided by racial issues, by socioeconomic issues, by political issues, we want to choose Jesus and we want to choose each other first. And when you do that, when you prioritize loving God and loving others first above all else, a lot of other things start falling into place. But if you choose instead other identities, other foci, you can end up in hard places. So I would like. I said I would encourage anybody that we desperately need people who love Jesus winsomely and intelligently, who will choose his way first, who are not defined by partisan issues, but choose the unity that can be found in the community there, and then get good at mourning and good at celebrating. So we. We celebrate with those who celebrate. We mourn with those who mourn. And when you do life with people, you're going to have both. And it's really needed to have people who do both and create space for people to be exactly who they are, to be where they are on their journey and help them take that next, next step forward, regardless of what that is. [01:17:19] Speaker A: I like to think they're both advocates with disabilities and those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities. Let's in and watch this program. I'm not naive enough to think that each group, in groups within those groups, take away the same things from every episode as the other groups. So, my guides, what do you hope that advocates with disabilities take away from everything we've talked about? And what do you hope that those who have yet to discover or embrace their own disabilities take away from the Shepherd Zone? [01:18:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing I would. I would tell them is that God loves them desperately more than they can understand, and that they were designed uniquely and created uniquely, and that God can redeem even, even the parts that they might feel like others don't care about and others judge them for that. That doesn't have to define you. In fact, it can be one of the best things about you. I would also encourage them to, or try and encourage that there are communities who really love Jesus and really love others, and there are allies there and there are spaces if you look hard enough. I think that there are reputations in our partisan world that people who follow Jesus are one thing or another, and most people are more complex than that. And so I'd encourage everybody to take the risk of becoming friends with someone who's different and discover the joy in life that comes from the variety and the diversity in the world that God has made. And, man, there's a richness there when you really are living a life with deep relationships with others that can't be found anywhere else. So I encourage everyone to engage deeply in community, in person, as much as possible. I think virtually we can get a lot of good content and we can know people. But there's a difference when you and I get together and we can hug each other and share the challenges and the joys of life together than just you and I being on a call together like this. So I love you and appreciate you and I'm delighted by the chance to be together and if I can be helpful to others in their journey, I'd love to do that. [01:20:03] Speaker A: Well, I love you too, brother. And I hope you will come back again on this show. It's now not just a pod cat, right? [01:20:19] Speaker B: Right. [01:20:20] Speaker A: Video catch. [01:20:22] Speaker B: People are going to see what I look like. [01:20:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:25] Speaker B: I got to be ready for this. [01:20:26] Speaker A: Yes, you too. Everyone does. I said the ball. I have great expectations. [01:20:39] Speaker B: You and Charles Dickens both yes. [01:20:42] Speaker A: And Stephen Ko see One Week Away on Netflix. Unbelievable movie on the watching it every night this week. The music, it's just incredible. And the album, it's about 35 minutes movie, it's about an hour and a half. Tells the story. It sets out tell beautifully and doesn't overstay its welcome. And I've texted that recommendation to half of all because I'm that entranced by. [01:21:42] Speaker B: Well, when you, when you're excited about something, Keith, you become the greatest evangelist for it, you know. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Oh yeah. And I only had to sit through 30 rom coms to find it. [01:21:58] Speaker B: That's more commitment than I have. Oh yeah, I'll take. I'll take the recommendation. [01:22:03] Speaker A: More commitment than most people think. So. Wrapping up in cage Anyone wants to find out more about Gymnastics Road Tucson all about mid June. The organization that you work for that your dad was the head of for many years, how can they do that? [01:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, our church, you know, it's damascusroadtucan.com you can find out more about us there. That will link to all sorts of things to our social media there as well. And then missionsdoor.org is a great organization that I'm on the leadership team for and then on on Instagram it's just Ryan Alexander Miller. So would love to love to connect with you and you know, hopefully there are ways that our journeys will intersect. [01:23:02] Speaker A: So Ogson, my brother, have a great time tonight. [01:23:09] Speaker B: You too. Thanks for having me Keith. I appreciate it. [01:23:20] Speaker A: You have been listening to Disability Empowerment Now I would like to thank my guests. You are listener and the disability empowerment team that made this episode possible. More information about the podcast can be found@disability empowermentnow.com or on our social media. Disability Empowerment now the podcast is available wherever you listen to podcasts or on the official website. Don't forget to rate, comment and share the podcast. This episode of disability empowerment knowledge copyrighted 2020.