Episode Transcript
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Welcome to Disability Empowerment Now, Season 3. I'm your host, Keith Murfee-DeConcini. Today I'm talking to Margaux DeConcini who is the Development Director of TROT. Margaux welcome to the show.
Margaux DeConcini: Hi Keith, thanks for having us.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Tell us about TROT. What does TROT. stand for?
Margaux DeConcini: Well, TROT stands for Therapeutic Riding of Tucson.
We are a Tucson born and bred organization. We've been around since 1974 and we're one of the first facilities in the United States to innovate the use of horses as a treatment modality. So what we do is we work with individuals who are living with disabilities and are working to improve their physical, cognitive, behavioral, social, or emotional well being through the power of horses and the human horse connection.
We are a premier accredited center by the Professional Association of Therapeutic Horsemanship, which puts us in the top 10 percent of centers nationwide and internationally for the services that we provide. So everything that we do is evidence based where we do work in conjunction with a lot of research facilities and are deemed a medical facility as well.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Thank you. Very detailed answer. How long have you been involved with TROT and what got you into this line of work?
Margaux DeConcini: I've been involved with TROT since I was 15. Started volunteering here, working as a sidewalker for individuals who had physical disabilities. And since then, it's kind of transitioned into obviously more of my passion and what I want to do. Horses are magnificent animals and me and myself knowing the, my personal history with and the emotional connection that people in horses can have, but also combining it with the physical ability and benefit that horses can provide was just eye opening.
And so, being able to follow through with helping all types of individuals with their goals and things that they've set for themselves has been really rewarding throughout these years.
So, my role here is,
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: You give such detailed answers that I don't know where to go.
Margaux DeConcini: I practice a lot. So I guess I'll add that my role here is as the.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted.
Margaux DeConcini: I got a call. So my role here as development director is to help with the fundraising and capacity improvement of the organization. I also help with community engagement and public relations. So I work a lot with donors in our community. I submit grants, I do all of the fundraising activities, all of program evaluation, doing the events and so much more. Hats typically fall off every time I walk through the door, but, I work really hard to create community connections and being able to share, transcribed my love for this organization and how powerful, magnificent horses can be in the, you know, in the healing realm that I want to be able to make sure that it's a resource that everyone is able to take advantage of.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: What do you hope or wish that people would know about therapeutic riding and the importance of therapeutic riding?
Margaux DeConcini: I think one of the things that people don't know most about horses is that when riding horses, their movement mimics our walk, our gait. And so when we're sitting on top of the horse and the horse is walking, though we are sitting, the horse's movement is triggering different receptors in our spine, which indicate to our brain that we are walking.
And so we see a lot of physical benefit because our brains are creating more neuroplasticity within our brains and being able to reconnect neurotransmitters and connecting those, the connections from our brain to our muscles and to help us walk or improve our fine motor gross motor skills.
And so even just the movement of the horse really helps to benefit our own physical bodies. And a lot of people who may relate, if you're ever, you know, on a horse and you get off and you're sore, you're like, oh, I didn't know I had those muscles. It's because your body is, your brain is actively working muscles that you are unconsciously working.
So, it really helps with your posture, with your back, your flexibility with all different types of core control and neck and back posture and all of those types of things that we need in our everyday life. So I find that really amazing, but also just being around horses brings a feeling of peace and awareness and calmness to individuals that is hard to replicate in other forms of therapeutic activities.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Yes, it most certainly is peaceful and hard to replicate. I have actually benefited from Therapeutic Hardspec writing, age 7 to 10, maybe 6 to 10, the dates aren't, aren't important. What's important is that I know first hand that what you do has value and actually works in my case, in resetting, syncing up my gate in order for me to be able to walk or have one component of walking, I also well orthotics that help me move side dog. Decided to crash the Zoom for whatever reason.
Margaux DeConcini: I think that's really great that you've had your own personal experiences with therapeutic horseback riding. And do you remember the name of the horse that you rode?
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: No, but I remember the place. It was called Unpretty Trot. It no longer exists. Up in Phoenix called Camelot.
Margaux DeConcini: Not one that we actively work with, but I know that there are a couple other facilities up in Phoenix, not affiliated with us, but as you know, within the industry, we talk to one another.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Yeah. How big is the industry?
Margaux DeConcini: I think that within the last 10 years, the industry of therapeutic riding or equine therapy has definitely grown. People are able to see the benefits of, of horses, for ourselves and there's a lot more research that has been going on, and especially Temple Grandin, who you recently interviewed, she has opened up a huge facility in Colorado to help with the research of therapeutic riding for individuals, specifically those living with autism, but other disabilities as well, only because, well, because therapeutic riding horses is did amazing things for her when she was growing up.
So the research is out there and people are really interested in understanding the why as to how these things are actually happening. We at Trot, we do some every once in a while. We'll do research projects with the U of A and their physical therapy department or with their pediatric department as well.
But there's a lot of different, a lot of other organizations like the Human Horse and Horse Connection Organization. They do a lot of research. Our accrediting body, the Professional Association of Therapeutic Horsemanship, they do a lot of research as well to help support all the centers in providing them with the most up to date research and evidence based practice for our participants.
So there's definitely a lot. I would, for anyone looking for therapeutic riding or equine therapy, I would definitely say, put in your research and find an actual accredited center or a center that has a certification. Within the industry, there's some people who may own horses and claim to do equine therapy, but it's not necessarily the same and sometimes can be a safety hazard.
So, definitely do your research and find the organizations that are based on evidence.
I think you're, you're muted.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Yeah, had to follow your lead. We have fun here. How big is TROT? How, how many clients can TROT have? Realistically, without the overload.
Margaux DeConcini: So, on average, our average has definitely grown over the last few years. We saw a huge uptick in especially equine assisted counseling after COVID and mostly for teens needing that extra support and that confidence booster for them.
But our average client count, I guess you could say, is about 340 individuals a year. We see close to about 170 participants is what we call them, about 170 participants a week. Yeah, so we definitely see a lot. But we're right now. We're kind of at a major capacity where we definitely can use more certified instructors.
We can use more horses and we can always use more money. But in order to continue to serve our community, we definitely need to add a few more aspects to our organization. Our waitlist right now is pretty high. We're about 140 people on our waitlist to get into our program.
So, yeah, I mean, and that's great. That's awesome. You know, we're out there and people know about us and are a resource for them. It just kind of breaks our heart that we can't help all of them all at the same time or, you know, our waitlist is about a year. You put in your application and it'll probably take you about a year to get on our program.
So we're trying our hardest to improve and expand our program so we can help more people and that doesn't, people don't just sit on our waitlist and stuff, but. Yeah, we're happy to know that we are such a valuable resource to our community.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Now, how many staff are in charge? And how do you handle seeing one hundred and seventy people participate each week.
Do you sleep, Margo?
Margaux DeConcini: Well, we joke that we actually live here. We have twelve staff members. We have seven full time staff members and five part time staff members. We are, we're full. Our weeks are long, they're busy. There's always something going on here at TROT, whether it's every weekend or every other weekend or during the week or something, there is always an event.
Like tomorrow we have our, you know, we have a volunteer appreciation event and, you know, all of our extra fundraising events that we're putting on, it's always a full time job for all of us, even if we're just considered part time, but we wouldn't be here if we didn't love it.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: What about funding? What opportunities, what events does Trot hold to hopefully generate funding?
Margaux DeConcini: Our funding comes in a lot of different shapes and forms. We receive about 75 to 80 percent of our funding from individual donors in the community, just basic people who are, you know, want to give back and want to support our programs.
So people can do that through tax credits. They can do that through sponsoring one of our horses. They can do that by donating to our scholarship programs, to our veterans and first responder program, or just to us in general. As you know, as any nonprofit, we still got to pay for the light bill and we still got to pay for our staff.
So unrestricted funds are always really great. But the rest of the funding comes from grants, local foundations and some other international foundations that support our work. And then we do four major fundraisers throughout the year. So we have in the springtime, we have a program or a fundraiser called Horsin Around, and it's our backyard barbecue.
It's western themed, it's casual, it's family friendly, we do a demonstration with our participants and their ponies, and then we have a golf tournament in May. We do fun Fundraisers at the Maverick and then our big events in September typically are Hearts and Horses Gala. Next year, this, you know, 2024 is a huge year for TROT because this is our 50th anniversary.
Yeah. Big five. Oh. So everything is bigger and better. It's going to be so much fun going through and celebrating. So everyone of our fundraisers is a giant party.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: So take us through a typical day at TROT. How much work goes into a typical day at running TROT? I love your facial expressions, by the way.
Margaux DeConcini: Well, I guess it really depends on who you're asking, but I'm pretty sure that most of us start working around six in the morning, whether that be just checking our emails at that time or are already here at TROT, for me, I'm usually starting it off with a meet and greet coffee type date with a friend of trot or a donor or someone, a supporter of trot and then coming into the office.
It's straight to the emails. I'm planning events. I'm checking on my grants. I'm making sure that everything is flowing. Right? I'm also, I guess you could say. Technically consider me the I. T. here in the office. So I'm answering any needs that someone has for their computer systems or for our donor management systems.
And then hopefully by the end of the day, I get a break to come out of my office and get to watch our programs, which are really awesome to watch. For other people in the office, like our instructors, it starts early. We have about 17 to 18 classes throughout the week. And so, Monday through, yeah, Monday through Saturday.
And so, we'll typically have a couple classes in the morning time, usually adults because kids are at school. And then in the evening time, we'll have our kid classes. So right now I'm looking out into the arena and there is a class going on. So what a class typically looks like is we have up to four participants in a single class.
There's one instructor, but each participant has three volunteers alongside them. So they have a horse handler, they have two sidewalkers. Horse handler's job is to strictly just focus on the horse, listen to how the horse is communicating with the the horse handler, if there's anything wrong, then the horse is going to indicate to the horse handler.
Hey, my writer is off balance. Hey, my writer is about to have a seizure. Hey, you know, there's something wrong here. And so the horse handler's job is to listen and then communicate the needs of. From the horse, um, the sidewalkers job or their role is to act as an extension of the instructor's arm. So they're there to assist the participant in the tasks at hand.
Sometimes our sidewalkers are just there as spotters walking along next to our participants, ensuring that they're safe, making sure that they're that they've heard the instructors and instructions or answering any questions or providing that extra encouragement that that participant may need to be able to complete the class.
And then, you know, sometimes our sidewalkers are a little bit more hands on. So for an individual who may need a little extra physical support when steering their horse. The sidewalkers may help guide or do like a hand over hand to encourage the rider, the participant to steer their horse left or right or complete the tasks at hand.
And they work on different goals. And so when someone comes into our programs. They go through an assessment first, looking at their strengths and their weaknesses. We look at their biopsychosociale. We look at their personality, their goals. If they're working on it with a physical therapist or an occupational therapist out in the community, we are incorporating those goals into sessions at TROT.
And so, everyone that's within the class is within the same age range, skill range, ability, and what goals are they working on that they can all work together on. So, some may be social goals, some may be, um, what we call cognitive sequencing. So, it's like what comes first, your socks or your shoes? And so, we play different games that encourage the understanding that your socks get put on before you put your shoes on.
So, that, you know, every session is completely different. Every session, you'll see them, maybe doing some trotting, maybe doing some, what we call two points, which is sitting out of the saddle and being able to flex your core and engage your legs, and it creates a lot of strength and balance. And it's kind of tricky, but the kids really love it because it's a challenge.
We do a lot of obstacle courses, we do a lot of, you know, fun games that support their, you know, physical, cognitive, social and emotional goals that they have set for themselves. So, days are, you know, start with classes and with classes and then in between we try and find time to do some extra training that we need to do with all of our horses.
We as an accredited organization have to write notes and progress notes, keep track of all of the progress and the goals that are being completed. And so our instructors will, you know, find time to write their notes or do anything else, make calls, get people in for the next semester, those types of things.
There's just not every day, no two days are the same. Everything is completely different, which keeps things exciting and fun, but a little overwhelming at times.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Yeah, what is the age range for the kids at TROT?
Margaux DeConcini: We start at age four and there's no age cap. So, in the past people, the community has thought that we were mostly or only Helped or worked with Children.
Our highest population is Children, but we're seeing so many more adults come into our programs where our oldest right now is 87. He's a veteran recovering from a stroke and he works hand in hand with his equine partner, mostly on the ground doing grooming and leading and is now working in the round pen learning how to exercise his horse and doing all of those types of things.
So four is four is the youngest and. There's no, no age cap. We'll always find something for someone. We have a couple programs for our older populations. One is called, back in the saddle for individuals who, adults who may have had horse experience in the past and have had a traumatic experience and are looking to get back in the saddle.
And then we also have another program called it's like our silver sneakers. It's called riders up. And that works with individuals, 55 and older who are working to improve on age related concerns. But other programs that we have, we have our adaptive writing program. We have an equine assisted counseling program, which focuses on the mental health aspect of an individual, so they would work directly with our mental health professional, addressing any type of concern. Whether it be depression, anxiety, grief, trauma, substance abuse, those types of things are mental health providers are also a certified veteran and first responder mental health provider as well.
So she specializes in working with those groups due to the high intense trauma that they experience and the conditions within the workforce. So leading into that, we have a program called heroes and horses that is directly made for our veterans and our first responders and what's really neat about this program is that it's kind of like an a la carte menu in a way where and that individual based on, you know, us meeting with us meeting them where they're at it.
We're able to create this program that supports them in their journey in their growth. And so on Wednesdays we have a coffee social for our veterans and first responders and then it leads into like a group activity that they do. Last week they were out drumming. They made drums.
One of our participants made a didgeridoo. They were out in the pasture drumming and, and singing with the horses in, with horses in the pasture. And it was a really, really neat experience because all of the horses came up to each and every one of them and were participating with them. And that was really fun to see.
But for our heroes and Horses program. The other really awesome thing is that it's 100 percent free to our veterans and first responders and their immediate families to participate. And that's by, yeah,
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: No, it's possible.
Margaux DeConcini: No, it's possible. Because we live in a really great community, Keith, people are incredibly generous and, you know, these, these individuals put their life on the line for us every day and as a way for us to give back to them and honor them and the, in what they've sacrificed for us, it's the least that we can do.
But we work with the individuals, their spouses and their children in whatever capacity is needed, whether if their child has a disability and is going to be in our adaptive riding program, that would be free. If the spouse is having, you know some separation anxieties, their services would be free.
So it's all in support of that for them. It's a really awesome program that we have and very well respected. We were known nationally for our veterans and first responder program along with our other programs, but that one too.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: You said at the top you've been involved with TROT since you were 15 as a volunteer. When did you join the organization and what keeps you coming back?
Margaux DeConcini: This place has my heart. The, the reward of being here, of seeing people take their first steps and, and hearing children say their first words and seeing veterans who have never been on a horse because they don't have legs, get on a horse and it's this place is not a place of I can't it's I can and I will and every day there's a miracle every day is there's a story of success and it's beautiful. And who wouldn't want to be part of an organization that created miracles every day?
I, you know, like every choice that I have ever made in my life has always revolved around TROT or it's come back to TROT where, you know, I started volunteering when I was 15 and growing up with foster kids in our house, I knew and could see, you know, the emotional and mental benefits of being around horses, not only for myself, but for them, too.
And then working as, you know, participating as a sidewalker here at TROT, and I remember my first participant that I worked with had muscular dystrophy and at the point of where she was in our program, she had come to us, she was utilizing a wheelchair for mobility and she, her limbs and her joints were so rigid that she wasn't even able to feed herself or brush her hair or even sit up and over a year with, I mean, every day there was progress, but within a year of her participating in our programs.
She was able to start feeding herself and she was able to start lifting her arms and gaining that core strength and creating that flexibility within her body to start doing things for herself and her to become her own person was a rose. Opening up from a bud to the most beautiful fragrant flower you have ever seen and the confidence and joy that you see on her face every time she rode and the connection that she created with her horse was absolutely beautiful and I can remember.
Just when there was, there was one day where she wanted, she wanted to walk, she wanted to take steps in the past, like we would take her down off of her horse and she would stand, but her parents would come and and pick her up and move her back to her chair and she would not let her parents take her and she would walk.
She started. She took step by step from her horse from this in the sand to her chair, and it brings me to tears every time I see it because the confidence that was built in her and the ability and everything that goes along with it, just, it was a miracle. And the really awesome thing to end that story is that in 2019, right before COVID, I watched her walk down the aisle at the U of A to receive her diploma in psychology.
So, it was, it was huge and one of the other really cool things about being here at TROT is that this is a family. Everyone here, we're all family and our volunteers create really lasting relationships and memories with the participants that they're working with because you're working so closely with them and you get to be part of their story and part of their stride.
And so just like that. I mean, I was at her graduation with her and that's why I chose TROT. I couldn't imagine being in any other place.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Wow, that's an incredible story. What is it like being the development director of, what did that entail? Pun intended.
Margaux DeConcini: Yeah. Being the development director you know, I mean, it's within the name. I'm directing the development of the organization. I am a storyteller. I get to tell, I'm like the eyewitness to all of these programs and all of these miracles that are happening. And I get to go and shout it off a mountain.I get to go and tell everybody how wonderful this organization is and how much it means to me and how special it is.
The life changing services that we provide and. That is my main role is to share who we are, why we are, what we do, and just share it with anybody who will listen. I hope you're listening.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Sure. How many horses does TROT own and work with? Because next to the people who run this incredible organization, the horses are literally the backbone of the organization. So how many horses did TROT have?
Margaux DeConcini: Currently we have 18 horses on property. We're always looking for more. We have a couple that are soon to be retired.
We're super particular about the horses that we have and that we bring on and the majority of them are ones that we have purchased because we are so picky about our horses and for good reason. I think one of the biggest misconceptions about our organization is that we are a horse rescue and we are not.
People think that we give pony rides and we don't. We are a medical and research facility.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: I just can't imagine what, okay, uh, moving on.
Margaux DeConcini: Yeah, you know like when you go to the swap meet and you see the little ponies in the carousel and Yeah, yeah. We're not, we're not like that at all. We are, we are a medical facility.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: You're not. Yeah. So am I right to assume that you will be trotting away from the organization in the next five to 10 years?
Margaux DeConcini: I mean, I don't see any of that, so I'm, so I don’t think so.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: That rolls into my next question over the next five, 10 years. What are some of the aspirations that you would like to see trot?
What are some programs, gold infrastructure, what have you, that you wish TROT would acquire over the next few years?
Margaux DeConcini: That's a really good question. I like looking around the property and looking at everything that we've, you know, recently purchased and built and like two years ago, we finally finished our cupboard arena. And that was a huge capital campaign that we did. And it was ginormous. Like, we were so grateful to have it.
Okay, I got one. So at least within the next year, maybe no more than two years, my goal is to see us have a fully functional tech shed. So, our community can donate used tech, you know, equine equipment, saddles, bridles, bits, blankets, boots, you know, all of those types of things. And even a horse trailer people have donated.
And it's really helpful for us because we have this really cool tech shed that we organize it and people can come out, we have two TAC sales twice a year and those, both of those TAC sales bring close to 12,000 a year to our programs just by the community coming in and purchasing used TAC from us.
So right now we have everything in this pretty cramped fifth wheel trailer that was originally used as a TAC shop. Way, way, way, way back, maybe in the 80s. So it's definitely out of date. But I would really love to see an actual or a larger building that we can have more control and more organization of our items.
So that's one. The other, I think, you know, we're always working towards it, but we really need new, we need more instructors. And so, I, the hardest part about having an accreditation like we, you know, are under is that everyone who works here has to be accredited and has to be certified as a therapeutic writing instructor.
And so, It's kind of like an associate's degree in a way. So we as a premier accredited center are the only ones in southern Arizona that can provide a mentorship for an individual to become a certified instructor, writing instructor, um, and. You know, we, the industry is growing and PATH, the Professional Association of Therapy to Coursemanship, is kind of like that five star gold standard, provides you with everything that you need to know from your, you know, mental health, physical health, your equine health and then being able to work with a lot of different populations, but also the transformative skills of being able to see an individual and help them transform into someone that they see, and they want to be so we really need more instructors to go through our program.
And then, you know, of course, more horses would be really, really helpful for us as well. But, we do have one on trial right now just to see if he can pass through our vet check and some of our other training programs that we have for our horses. But those are probably the big three within the next three years that I'd really like to see us increase and improve on.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Those are very worthy goals. If someone wanted to get involved in this type of work but has no, even no, or very little idea of how to go about getting involved with this type of work, one would need some action steps that you would give them.
Margaux DeConcini: I would say that the first thing is to start volunteering. If you know that you're interested in something that an organization is doing, start volunteering.
You're going to learn everything that you need to know within, you know, probably a short amount of time, and the people that you're interacting with are going to have a lot of information about the things that you're interested in. For our, you know, especially like our mentorship program, one of the main things is that we require you and for the mentorship program to be a volunteer for a specific amount of time, so you know exactly what you're getting into.
And then you, as you know, that individual, you can ask questions and take steps and, you know, bring on more responsibility for yourself to test it and make sure that that's actually what you want, but. If you know that that's what you want, I would definitely reach out. Our program director is always happy to answer questions about our certification process and our mentorship program and those types of things.
We are an open door. We take calls all the time, you know, from people who are interested in our programs, from people who are interested in becoming a certified instructor or just how to get involved. Those, I would say, are the first two things. Either, start, you know, fill out a volunteer application and start volunteering or call and talk to our program director.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: I'd like to think and I'd like to hope that both people with disabilities and those who have yet to discover and embrace their own disabilities listen or watch this program. It would be completely naive to think that both groups would take the same things away from each episode. So as my guest, what do you hope that people with disabilities take away from what we've talked about?
And what do you hope that people who have yet to discover and embrace their own disabilities take away from this episode?
Margaux DeConcini: I love that question. What I hope, if anything were taken away from this episode, I would hope that an individual would take away the fact that, if you want to do it, do it. Don't let anybody tell you you can't because there are so many different ways to which things are adaptable and things are able to be inclusive and, you know, able for you to participate in them. Riding a horse, like I mentioned about a, you know, a veteran who was a double amputee and we have a mechanical lift.
So getting him onto the horse was easy, but think about everybody who told him you'll never ride a horse. He did and we helped him. That's the beauty of it. If you take anything away from this program, don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't because you can and you will.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Well, so if a person wants to know more about TROT or even support TROT, where would they go to find out more about TROT and what you guys need to continue your amazing work?
Margaux DeConcini: So, if you want to learn more, visit us online, www.trottarizona.org. Arizona is spelled out. Give us a call, schedule a tour. Come, you know, watch a class with us. And then also, you know, like our volunteer applications are online. All of our participant program applications are online as well.
You know, either decide what you want your first step to be, whether it be just to fill out an application or to give us a call and do a little bit more digging first, but we welcome any of that.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Margaux, I want very much for the work you do. Still don't know how you'd sleep. I assume very, very deeply, because you must arrive home exhausted, but content every night.
At least, I hope that's what happens. I want to thank you again for coming on, for sharing the amazing and beautiful and vital work that you've done and I hope you will come back sometime and share more stories and more views. The view behind you is spectacular. Yeah, beautiful pastures. Yes, I mean, how could you not enjoy going to work every day with that scenery behind you?
I will see you soon because you are one of mine. That's the number that I automatically pull out of my head. I'm so lucky that I got to interview you and learn more about the amazing an incredible, incredibly vital work that I know from personal experience that changes lives from top to bottom. And so thank you for the incredible work you do.
Margaux DeConcini: Well, thank you so much, Keith, for having us on and giving us this opportunity to share our resources with others. And I really appreciate the things that you're doing also for the community. The impact that you're making is really awesome. And the connections that you're creating are truly spectacular.
So thank you so much. I feel honored to be here.
Keith Murfee-DeConcini: Thank you. And happy holidays.
Margaux DeConcini: Happy holidays.
Keith: You have been listening to Disability Empowerment Now. I would like to thank my guest, You, our listener and the Disability Empowerment Team that made this episode possible. More information about the podcast can be found at DisabilityEmpowermentNow.com or on social media @disabilityempowermentnow. The podcast is available wherever you listen to podcasts or on the official website. Don’t forget to rate, comment, and share the podcast! This episode of Disability Empowerment Now is copyrighted 2024.
